Recent Topics
Finally broke down a bought a trailer
by BeerCan. 12/13/18 04:25 PM
What oil for '19 Subaru WRX?
by TKNY. 12/13/18 04:12 PM
Splitting wedges
by buck91. 12/13/18 04:00 PM
Avoiding rust in the rust belt states?
by Chris B.. 12/13/18 03:00 PM
Joey Logano and the 2019 Mustang
by Malo83. 12/13/18 02:40 PM
BMW LL01FE Spec
by The Critic. 12/13/18 02:03 PM
I Tried and Failed to Not Buy a New Car
by badtlc. 12/13/18 01:49 PM
OEM Brand Coolant by Rocochem
by NumbersGuy. 12/13/18 01:15 PM
Motomaster Dexron Vi Fully Synthetic
by Gannet167. 12/13/18 12:55 PM
Hacked
by Smoky14. 12/13/18 12:41 PM
Scanning for U codes.
by LeakySeals. 12/13/18 12:23 PM
Food photography trickery
by nthach. 12/13/18 11:29 AM
oil for 2.5 2013 vw passat?
by jstert. 12/13/18 09:47 AM
Scotty Kilmer Parody
by oilpsi2high. 12/13/18 09:41 AM
ID this old tool
by John_Conrad. 12/13/18 09:30 AM
Weak New CR2032/remote start + fob batteries
by redhat. 12/13/18 09:23 AM
Newest Members
WondrousBread, slickoo9, turntable_life, Poles19, HinaMach
66669 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
109 registered members (aquariuscsm, 28oz, Ag76, andyd, Astro14, 2K2AcuraTL, 10 invisible), 1,944 guests, and 37 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,032
Posts4,926,413
Members66,669
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 9 1 2 9
Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter #4502283
08/30/17 11:52 AM
08/30/17 11:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,360
Canada
addyguy Offline OP
addyguy  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,360
Canada
This will be a long post, but bear with me.

Will a 10W full-synthetic oil work perfectly fine in a relatively cold winter, where one would usually use a 5W-30?

On here these days, '10W' oils are getting a lot of attention b/c of there better shear stability and lower NOAK values, but many people would hesitate to use them in a relatively cold northern winter. But would they be just as good?

Many 10W synthetic oils have very low pour points and CCS values, so much so that they are almost a 5W oil. Many have speculated most are the same formula, just sightly tweaked. So I can't see there being any cranking problems down to even -30C with these oils.

Back in the early days of syns, the 1970's, most oils were 10W-40, including the new syns. Back then, one of the main observations made about the new synthetic oils was how much easier cars started in cold weather, even if a 10W-40 oil was used. So, a 10W full syn will always crank over much better than a 10W conventional.

Also, if you look at a lot of PDS's, many 10W-30 synthetic oils meet GM 6094M; which could only be met in a conventional oil in a 5W-30 due to required CCS values. So, a 10W-30 synthetic could be said to be equivalent to a 5W-30 conventional, which means it should be good down to -30C.

My Kia runs a lot smoother and consumes less oil on 10W-30, so I was thinking for this winter of using a top-shelf 10W-30 over the winter in it. BUT, I have had my last vehicle completely 'lock up' at an actual air temp of -29.5C with 10W-30 conventional in the sump. Our winter low temps around here are 'usually' in the -18C to -24C range; but we do have cold snaps where it can go to -29C to -32C. This is getting too cold for a 10W conventional, but would a 10W full-syn handle it okay?


2010 Kia Soul 2U - 2.0L I-4, auto; 137k miles.
M1 EP 10W-30; OEM Kia filter.
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502292
08/30/17 12:13 PM
08/30/17 12:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,359
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,359
Slovenia EU
For the temperatures mentioned above I would rather use a 5w40 then....

Last edited by Kamele0N; 08/30/17 12:14 PM.

2008 Toyota Yaris 1ND-TV 1.4 D4-D Elf FullTech FE 5w30
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502298
08/30/17 12:21 PM
08/30/17 12:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,122
pa
benjy Offline
benjy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,122
pa
when new a 10W "synthetic" could be good enough, but depending a 5W or even 0W would be better. refined CRUDE oils group III legally synthetic degrade with use as the additives get used up, real synthetic Group IV + V that require few of the additives that allow a refined mineral perform in colder + hotter weather. mineral oils thicken at a faster rate than synthesized true synthetics. 0W oils prolly need some real synthetic to meet that spec. a lot depends on how cold it gets!!

Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502301
08/30/17 12:25 PM
08/30/17 12:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
I've been using 10w40 synthetic in my 530i year round through Michigan winters and so far have not found any cold startup issues at all. My car sits in an unheated attached garage most times though.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: Kamele0N] #4502304
08/30/17 12:27 PM
08/30/17 12:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
For the temperatures mentioned above I would rather use a 5w40 then....

I use RT6 5W40 in my tractor mostly for cold starts, but T5 10W30 is a "syn blend" and has nearly the same cold start specs.
In my cars in the same climate I always run a 5W20 or 5W30 in winter, sometimes synthetic but often PYB or something similar if its on sale. My cars seem to start fine in the rare -30C morning, so I'm going to stick with that.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 218km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 15km 0W20
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502313
08/30/17 12:48 PM
08/30/17 12:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 279
PA
T-Stick Offline
T-Stick  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 279
PA
Unless I'm missing something ... if two pour points are equal between a 0w and a 10w, then this simply means the one is a 0w at start up and the other is a 10w. If flow properties are fine for both in a given temp range, the 10w should offer better protection when driving the car till it is warmed up to operating temp since it is using a thicker viscosity. How much protection does a 0w weight really offer when driving a cold motor?

Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502317
08/30/17 12:53 PM
08/30/17 12:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
I would run the M1 AFE 0W-30, and change it at about 3500 miles over the winter.

Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502324
08/30/17 12:59 PM
08/30/17 12:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 11,088
Phoenix, AZ
Nick1994 Offline
Nick1994  Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 11,088
Phoenix, AZ
I've gone the other direction. 0w30 in my Camry, it hit 120F this summer (49C).


2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L 88k Motorcraft Synthetic Blend 5w30 & OEM
2000 Toyota Camry 2.2L 231k Valvoline 5w30 & Fram Ultra
1996 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L 147k Mobil 1 HM 10w40 & Fram Ultra
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502336
08/30/17 01:13 PM
08/30/17 01:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,065
MA.
Camprunner Offline
Camprunner  Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,065
MA.
My father has used 10w30 synthetic in his V6 Jeep Liberty for years in winter without issue and we have had several winters hear in Western Massachusetts where it has reached -20F for an extended timeframe (Up to two weeks) and his Jeep "Left outside" always started right up. As a matter of fact last year against my advice he used up some simi synthetic 10w40 he had in the barn that was a few years old and his Jeep started right up without and strange noises. Back in the 80's I had a friend that ran a small repair shop specializing in Europen makes and all he used was Castrol GTX 20w50 for summer and 10w40 for winter and not one customer ever complained there BMW or Audi would not start.

Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: Camprunner] #4502352
08/30/17 01:26 PM
08/30/17 01:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,306
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,306
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
My father has used 10w30 synthetic in his V6 Jeep Liberty for years in winter without issue and we have had several winters hear in Western Massachusetts where it has reached -20F for an extended timeframe (Up to two weeks) and his Jeep "Left outside" always started right up. As a matter of fact last year against my advice he used up some simi synthetic 10w40 he had in the barn that was a few years old and his Jeep started right up without and strange noises. Back in the 80's I had a friend that ran a small repair shop specializing in Europen makes and all he used was Castrol GTX 20w50 for summer and 10w40 for winter and not one customer ever complained there BMW or Audi would not start.

All my cars would probably start at -20F using 10W oil; they all have good batteries and properly functioning fuel, ignition and starting systems. But why would I want to do that? What benefit would I get?


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502360
08/30/17 01:33 PM
08/30/17 01:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,159
Boston, MA
Bgallagher Offline
Bgallagher  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,159
Boston, MA
A 10W SYNTHETIC IN THE WINTER!

jk. It is more than fine. If it meets your vehicles specs you are a OK.


2017 Chevy Traverse - 28k - Delco Dexos 1 and PF63
2014 Chevy Equinox - 22k - Delco Dexos 1 and PF457G
2015 GMC Terrain - 22k- Delco Dexos 1 and PF457G
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502364
08/30/17 01:37 PM
08/30/17 01:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 772
Sask, Canada
BrianF Offline
BrianF  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 772
Sask, Canada
I believe we over think this often. yes a 0w or 5w will flow better in the cold, but is there definitive proof that running a 10w will result in serious engine damage or failure?

I run my oils year round on the prairies. Its costly, time consuming and wasteful to swap oils out for the season. I do not garage my vehicles but they do get plugged in before use. I usually plug them in around the -15 or colder mark.

In my 1500 I ran PPPP 5w20 and in my Tb I run what ever group 3 synthetic is on sale, 5w30. I could get the oil cheap when on sale so it was not a big deal.

Fast forward to my 2017 3500 CTD. RT6 and the likes of that are expensive, over priced in my opinion. They are fine oils but are they really needed in my climate? I am not in the Yukon and I plug in when planning a trip.

I sourced out PetroCan 10w30 semi synthetic for it. It has decent cold weather properties, better than Citgo/Motomaster 10w30 semisynthetic and even RT5 10w30. It was 4.5$ a liter tax in locally. Am I worried that I will do irrevocable harm with this oil? Not in the least. I know a few people that run Powerstrokes, Cummins and Duramax's year round on the prairies with nothing more than conventional 15w40 and have had no issues for years.

yes this is anecdotal at best. I am planning to run some UOA on this truck. I just swapped out the factory fill and will look at this process later in the change index. Perhaps then I can put my money where my mouth is.


2006 Trailblazer LT. QSUD with Fram Ultra.
2017 Ram 3500 SLT Megacab. Duron SHP 10w30 with Hastings LF608.
1993 GMC 1500. QSAD with Fram PH5
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502371
08/30/17 01:45 PM
08/30/17 01:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,212
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Online content
Garak  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,212
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Back in the early days of syns, the 1970's, most oils were 10W-40, including the new syns. Back then, one of the main observations made about the new synthetic oils was how much easier cars started in cold weather, even if a 10W-40 oil was used. So, a 10W full syn will always crank over much better than a 10W conventional.

Remember to not focus much on pour point. Also, watch the focus on an old GM specification. Note that SAE J300 has been tweaked over the years, whereas the GM specification was replaced and is obsolete. Whether something is actually meeting something or not isn't very easy to verify. If it's a 5w-30, generally speaking, it has to be labelled as such, and not as a 10w-30.

Historically, in my experience, it was always easier to start a well functioning carb in the winter over a fuel injected system, irrespective of what's in the sump. It's not just about cranking. Are you able to actually pump the oil?

Under most conditions, even in a Saskatchewan winter, a 10w-30 is certainly up to the task. But, if you wind up doing unaided starts in a stretch of -40, things can get dicey.

If you want to do some comparisons, take a look at Petro-Canada's data sheets. If I recall correctly, their 5w-30 conventional actually has slightly better CCS and/or MRV numbers than the 5w-30 synthetic. One may see that with their 10w-30, too, or find other examples from other oil companies. In fact, I would almost guarantee that an ILSAC 10w-30 conventional would have better cold numbers than, say, a 10w-30 synthetic blend HDEO.

How about an A5/B5 5w-30 for shear stability? Or, if you have access to a garage and a block heater (or an oil pan heater under the worst possible conditions), the 10w-30 would work each time without fail.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502395
08/30/17 01:57 PM
08/30/17 01:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,426
New England
Virtus_Probi Online mad
Virtus_Probi  Online Mad
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,426
New England
Conventional and synthetic oils have the same CSS and MRV test limits for any given grade, but I have noticed from looking at 5W30s that some (not all) synthetics will have CCS viscosities well below the limit (6600 mPa*s at -30C) while most conventionals seem to group fairly tightly just below that limit. Of course, if an oil is so thin at cold that it meets the 0W criteria, it has to be labeled as a 0WXX and not a 5WXX. Same thing with the grades you are looking at, any oil that really performs at the 5WXX CCS and MRV levels can't be labeled as a 10WXX.

You might well find a 10W30 synthetic that performs better at extreme cold than the 10W30 conventional that gave trouble before, but do you really want to take the risk? I've been doing OK parking outside on my frigid ski weekends with 5W30s that I knew were very good CCS performers for that grade (mostly M1s), but I would certainly switch to a 0W30 that had low NOACK loss and good LSPI resistance with no qualms. I'm not sure what the Subaru dealer put in my FXT for the first few changes, but I remember a couple of really shaky starts in the Whites with it...still started, but the car really seemed to be suffering!

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 08/30/17 02:01 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter [Re: addyguy] #4502417
08/30/17 02:13 PM
08/30/17 02:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,680
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,680
Indiana
Does your car have a block heater? It's been my understanding that Canada vehicles (gas or diesel) typically come with them.

I started my Jeep in -25*F weather a few years ago with mineral 10w30 and it didn't sound good. It took a few seconds for the oil gauge to come up and my "check gauges!" chime went off. Would a mineral 5w30 made much of a difference? Who knows. Cars struggle in cold weather regardless. Your starter and battery come into effect. Get the most CCA's you can when battery shopping. I personally wouldn't make a regular habit of a 10w30 if I saw temperatures regularly that cold though. I would also invest in a block heater and a timer if I didn't have one.

I know you didn't ask, but I'll suggest it anyway. Have you considered a 0w40 or 5w40? Have you been able to try them and monitor consumption?


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 202k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 186k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 153k Synpower 5w30 Supertech ST3980 (Ecore)

Page 1 of 9 1 2 9

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™