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Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? #4496193
08/23/17 02:06 PM
08/23/17 02:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Just to be safe, would one 4 ounce bottle of ZDDP plus in 15 quarts of CK-4 oil raise the Zinc and Phosphorus levels to CJ-4 standards??? I don't know how many PPM one bottle will raise the levels.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496227
08/23/17 02:59 PM
08/23/17 02:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
I'm nowhere near the most knowledgeable party on this, but assuming that one bottle of ZDDPlus is formulated to bring zinc from about 800 PPM to somewhere just under 2,000, wouldn't it raise 15 qts. @ 800 PPM to about 1,200?


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496234
08/23/17 03:03 PM
08/23/17 03:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Who is spreading this misinformation that CK-4 specifies less zddp?

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Reddy45] #4496238
08/23/17 03:12 PM
08/23/17 03:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Who is spreading this misinformation that CK-4 specifies less zddp?


So you are saying the CK-4 oils have higher levels of Zinc and Phosphorus than CJ-4?

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496244
08/23/17 03:23 PM
08/23/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Originally Posted By: Invasivore
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Who is spreading this misinformation that CK-4 specifies less zddp?


So you are saying the CK-4 oils have higher levels of Zinc and Phosphorus than CJ-4?


Not necessarily. The CK-4 spec does not seem to directly specify lower levels of ZDDP based on what I have seen on the information published on the web. I think a lot of the early CK-4 adopters were foolish enough to rate their oils for BOTH SN and CK-4, and the API SN spec DOES limit ZDDP.

Now.. how the oil companies interpret the spec (and if they are shifting from ZDDP to other anti-wear compounds) is another consideration. A VOA of a CK-4 oil that has less ZDDP than the CJ-4 variant does not directly mean that CK-4 caused that lowering of ZDDP.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496247
08/23/17 03:26 PM
08/23/17 03:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Then why would Ford's new spec call for a minimum level of phosphorus that supposedly is not met by CK-4 oils?

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496361
08/23/17 05:52 PM
08/23/17 05:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
I'm just saying that the specification and the implementation are 2 different things.

It is not correct to directly assume that CK-4 has inferior wear protection qualities when we haven't had enough quantity or time to judge how the producers meet the spec.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496365
08/23/17 05:56 PM
08/23/17 05:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
I did a calculation off ZDDP Plus' website. I could be wrong but I think 4 ounces will raise Zinc 600ppm and Phosphorus 480ppm at 15 quarts.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Reddy45] #4496366
08/23/17 06:00 PM
08/23/17 06:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
I'm just saying that the specification and the implementation are 2 different things.

It is not correct to directly assume that CK-4 has inferior wear protection qualities when we haven't had enough quantity or time to judge how the producers meet the spec.


Yes, I see what you are saying. To achieve the CK-4 spec, some blenders have chose to limit different additives to achieve the result which may or may not be ZDDP.

I think I might try Valvoline premium blue extreme CK-4 since it's on "The List." I will do a VOA, and UOA at 5k, change oil again and try it with Archoil UOA 5k. I have a 6.0 Powerstroke with 170k miles.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496394
08/23/17 06:32 PM
08/23/17 06:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
There is one thing to watch, and that's how the ZDDP species isn't necessarily the same for a PCMO as for an HDEO. So, as always, one has to watch with what one expects from a ZDDP additive. A formulator would be better able to provide us with details on that.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Garak] #4496924
08/24/17 11:15 AM
08/24/17 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Invasivore Offline OP
Invasivore  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Garak
There is one thing to watch, and that's how the ZDDP species isn't necessarily the same for a PCMO as for an HDEO. So, as always, one has to watch with what one expects from a ZDDP additive. A formulator would be better able to provide us with details on that.


Yes, I would like to know if adding the bottle of ZDDP will negatively affect film strength, suspension of other additives, and effectiveness of other additives.

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4496972
08/24/17 12:20 PM
08/24/17 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 106
Europe
Ether Offline
Ether  Offline
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Posts: 106
Europe
If other additives have been substituted in place of ZDDP for CK-4 oils,could this mean that if you added ZDDP to the package, you may have a situation where the additives are forced to compete with each other,resulting in an unbalanced blend,and/or loss of some positive benefits?

Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4497434
08/25/17 12:34 AM
08/25/17 12:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Invasivore
Yes, I would like to know if adding the bottle of ZDDP will negatively affect film strength, suspension of other additives, and effectiveness of other additives.

That's a very good question. To you and to Ether, as best as I recall, ZDDP has more than one function as an additive (or more accurately, additives), including not just anti-wear but as an anti-oxidant.

Just like an HDEO isn't an automatic substitute for a race oil for a gasser, I'd suspect a ZDDP additive designed for performance gasoline engines may not turn a lower phosphorus HDEO into a CI-4+ automatically. I wouldn't go so far as to talk about additive clash, but the intended benefits may just not be there.

Heck, as I recall, at least one car journalist (can't remember if it was print or TV off hand) found out the hard way that a ZDDP additive to an ordinary motor oil can at times be a poor substitute for a dedicated break in lubricant. I don't think we'd find that by running a CK-4 lubricant with a ZDDP additive, but there really isn't any evidence that the additive is needed in the first place.

For those who are worried, I suppose Ford's list is a good place to start. Of course, we are seeing CK-4 only oils, rather than dual rated options, too. I certainly understand everyone's concern. A diesel engine going south isn't like tossing in a cam and set of lifters into a 305 for $200 and an afternoon of work. However, sooner or later, CK-4 will be the only readily available product, and that's probably the case in some places by now.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Adding ZDDP plus to CK-4 oil??? [Re: Invasivore] #4503505
08/31/17 02:28 PM
08/31/17 02:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,101
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,101
Michigan
I'm thinking about dosing up my next fill of RT6 in the Dodge with a ZDDP additive to see if it affects the Iron wear rate. I'll have two complete OCI's of CK4 RT6 to compare it to.

Of course, I could go back to my old UOA's and compare Iron wear metals of CK4 RT6 to CJ4 RT6...

Last edited by A_Harman; 08/31/17 02:29 PM.

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