New Car Warranties and Oil

[Mainia]

I call BullShuvicey on that scenario. Unless you see that warranty in writing, you won't get it and when would changing it early "throw off" any kind of a warranty of long term longevity warranty. That is BullShuvicey dealer "dogma" or her opinion. SO many times you hear even the service manager say you need to use their stuff to get a warranty when that is total BullShuvicey.

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[Mainia]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
...Transmission fluid doesn't need to be changed or flushed very often at all. What you saw was a way for the dealer to get easy money, offering a "warranty" if the customer spends a bunch of money on unnecessary tranny flushes. Clever but unethical. A huge waste. Transmission fluid normally lasts for 100,000 miles or more.


If viscosity factors into proper operation of an automatic/manual transmission, then going to mileage extremes could be harmful. The additive package disappearing or becoming weak is another issue. On my DD the Merc V trans fluid viscosity probably shears to min spec (or lower) by the 30K recommended OCI. Let's say it sheared from 7.4 cSt (100 deg C) down to 6.0-6.2 cSt in 30K miles. After 90K miles on the same fluid I'd expect approx 4.0 cSt.

ATF shear rates

There might be some fully synthetic automatic trans fluids that can get you 100K miles. But with semi-syns or conventionals, that might not work.




I 150% agree with you. Most OEM ATFs are a group 3 and just get "bet the heck" by heat. Even Amsoil group 4 Signature Series can get hammered by heat and CAN start to varnish because it mainly is a PAO and PAO's varnishes on high heat. This is where Redline's base stocks that are a group 5 and are far better at taking high heat with far less chance of varnishing.

Example: Our 2014 lease return Rav4 from a lady in upstate New York with no sign of soccer mom hauling. I drained the horrible OEM Toyota WS [censored] out and it was dark dark dark maroon/blackish at 21,400 miles. The smell was SO BAD my garage smelled for days. I even got sick will changing it and had to open up the 1,000 sf garage to get air it was so bad. That OEM ATF was toast at 21,000, no hitch and no sign of any kind of hauling. The whole back of the Rav4 was like it came off the showroom floor.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: Mainia
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
...Transmission fluid doesn't need to be changed or flushed very often at all. What you saw was a way for the dealer to get easy money, offering a "warranty" if the customer spends a bunch of money on unnecessary tranny flushes. Clever but unethical. A huge waste. Transmission fluid normally lasts for 100,000 miles or more.


If viscosity factors into proper operation of an automatic/manual transmission, then going to mileage extremes could be harmful. The additive package disappearing or becoming weak is another issue. On my DD the Merc V trans fluid viscosity probably shears to min spec (or lower) by the 30K recommended OCI. Let's say it sheared from 7.4 cSt (100 deg C) down to 6.0-6.2 cSt in 30K miles. After 90K miles on the same fluid I'd expect approx 4.0 cSt.

ATF shear rates

There might be some fully synthetic automatic trans fluids that can get you 100K miles. But with semi-syns or conventionals, that might not work.




I 150% agree with you. Most OEM ATFs are a group 3 and just get "bet the heck" by heat. Even Amsoil group 4 Signature Series can get hammered by heat and CAN start to varnish because it mainly is a PAO and PAO's varnishes on high heat. This is where Redline's base stocks that are a group 5 and are far better at taking high heat with far less chance of varnishing.

Example: Our 2014 lease return Rav4 from a lady in upstate New York with no sign of soccer mom hauling. I drained the horrible OEM Toyota WS [censored] out and it was dark dark dark maroon/blackish at 21,400 miles. The smell was SO BAD my garage smelled for days. I even got sick will changing it and had to open up the 1,000 sf garage to get air it was so bad. That OEM ATF was toast at 21,000, no hitch and no sign of any kind of hauling. The whole back of the Rav4 was like it came off the showroom floor.




Maybe Toyota uses transmission fluid that is junk-but GM's Dex 6 is stout stuff-and can go longer without flushing even when towing.

 

[Scdevon]

Originally Posted By: Seventh


I have never seen warranty coverage denied because of oil or filter choice.



In real life, dealerships and dealer techs couldn't care less what oil or oil filter is on a vehicle unless there is an obvious failure of the filter causing a massive leak or somebody added washer fluid to the engine oil by mistake or something crazy like that.

In 1987 I saw a Buick factory rep arguing with a Grand National owner and void the warranty on a Buick Grand National for "competition use" of the vehicle. The differential was blown and there were remains of E.T. 1/4 mile times from a local drag strip still on the windshield in white shoe polish. The rear wheel wells were full of shredded rubber from doing brake stands and burnouts.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Lots of folklore regarding dealerships and oil issues. In almost 50 years of personal and commercial vehicle ownership, including some warranty repairs, I have never experienced or even heard of a dealer shop asking for evidence of oil type, brand, invoices, etc. Even if they were to ask for an invoice from me, I buy all my oil, even for my personal vehicles, from my commercial oil supplier. An invoice would have a laundry list of oils on it. There is no way they tell from that what oil I put in the vehicle. Now I am a bit of a stickler in keeping records of oil changes and such, but that is part of doing business.

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: Mainia
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
...Transmission fluid doesn't need to be changed or flushed very often at all. What you saw was a way for the dealer to get easy money, offering a "warranty" if the customer spends a bunch of money on unnecessary tranny flushes. Clever but unethical. A huge waste. Transmission fluid normally lasts for 100,000 miles or more.




If viscosity factors into proper operation of an automatic/manual transmission, then going to mileage extremes could be harmful. The additive package disappearing or becoming weak is another issue. On my DD the Merc V trans fluid viscosity probably shears to min spec (or lower) by the 30K recommended OCI. Let's say it sheared from 7.4 cSt (100 deg C) down to 6.0-6.2 cSt in 30K miles. After 90K miles on the same fluid I'd expect approx 4.0 cSt.

ATF shear rates

There might be some fully synthetic automatic trans fluids that can get you 100K miles. But with semi-syns or conventionals, that might not work.




I 150% agree with you. Most OEM ATFs are a group 3 and just get "bet the heck" by heat. Even Amsoil group 4 Signature Series can get hammered by heat and CAN start to varnish because it mainly is a PAO and PAO's varnishes on high heat. This is where Redline's base stocks that are a group 5 and are far better at taking high heat with far less chance of varnishing.

Example: Our 2014 lease return Rav4 from a lady in upstate New York with no sign of soccer mom hauling. I drained the horrible OEM Toyota WS [censored] out and it was dark dark dark maroon/blackish at 21,400 miles. The smell was SO BAD my garage smelled for days. I even got sick will changing it and had to open up the 1,000 sf garage to get air it was so bad. That OEM ATF was toast at 21,000, no hitch and no sign of any kind of hauling. The whole back of the Rav4 was like it came off the showroom floor.




Maybe Toyota uses transmission fluid that is junk-but GM's Dex 6 is stout stuff-and can go longer without flushing even when towing.

I think couple of bitogers changed dex6 on newer cars at 20k or so and observed it was real dark. I think the bitogers were 4wd and shannon but dont hold me to it.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Mainia
No in the USA we have the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. It states they can't make you use their oil or filter to get warranty on say your motor or your transmission. If they state and make you, they have to provide it to you for free. I have heard this "you have to run our oil or filter" at dealerships and I pipe right up and say NO, there is the Magnuson -Moss Warranty Act that says I don't and you can't hold my warranty hostage. Many people at the dealer THEN change their tune. They have been told to preach this "dogma" by the owners, some really don't know or heard of the Magnuson-Moss Act and preach the "you have to use our stuff to get warranty" because "they don't know what they don't know.

http://www.mikethemechanic.com/about/magnuson-moss-warranty-act/

.


While that is the law, it has no enforcement function unless the owner sues on their own dime in Federal civil court to enforce it.

 

[jim302]

Originally Posted By: Kuato

Right. Plus, on an older car the manual lists a wide range of oils that were recommended for use by the engineers that built the engine. On a new car today, they list one grade – the one that was used to achieve the miles per gallon ratings during CAFE certification.


Some still list multiple grades... my Soul lists 5w-20, 5w-30, and 10w-30 (above 0 degrees F) as acceptable, but recommends 5w-20 for fuel economy. Somewhat ambiguously, it doesn't list an upper temperature limit for 5w-20 but does mention that higher viscosity oils are needed for high temperatures. Therefore they would have a hard time denying warranty if something reasonably close to the recommended grade is used.

I have heard of dealers asking for proof of oil changes, but I really think it only happens if they suspect there is an obvious lack of maintenance. I have never heard of any sending oil off for a UOA to make sure it meets the correct specs. It is very easy to tell if an engine has suffered lubrication issues related to a lack of maintenance. You have some people who obsess about it and won't go even a few miles over, some fools are rolling at 30K on the factory fill, and I suspect the majority of drivers who occasionally do it on time and sometimes forget and go a few thousand miles over... with no real damage done. Then there's the tiny fraction of people (BITOG members) who base their maintenance on UOAs and either aren't in warranty or aren't worried about it.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: Mainia

...Transmission fluid doesn't need to be changed or flushed very often at all. What you saw was a way for the dealer to get easy money, offering a "warranty" if the customer spends a bunch of money on unnecessary tranny flushes. Clever but unethical. A huge waste. Transmission fluid normally lasts for 100,000 miles or more.




If viscosity factors into proper operation of an automatic/manual transmission, then going to mileage extremes could be harmful. The additive package disappearing or becoming weak is another issue. On my DD the Merc V trans fluid viscosity probably shears to min spec (or lower) by the 30K recommended OCI. Let's say it sheared from 7.4 cSt (100 deg C) down to 6.0-6.2 cSt in 30K miles. After 90K miles on the same fluid I'd expect approx 4.0 cSt.

ATF shear rates

There might be some fully synthetic automatic trans fluids that can get you 100K miles. But with semi-syns or conventionals, that might not work.




I 150% agree with you. Most OEM ATFs are a group 3 and just get "bet the heck" by heat. Even Amsoil group 4 Signature Series can get hammered by heat and CAN start to varnish because it mainly is a PAO and PAO's varnishes on high heat. This is where Redline's base stocks that are a group 5 and are far better at taking high heat with far less chance of varnishing.

Example: Our 2014 lease return Rav4 from a lady in upstate New York with no sign of soccer mom hauling. I drained the horrible OEM Toyota WS [censored] out and it was dark dark dark maroon/blackish at 21,400 miles. The smell was SO BAD my garage smelled for days. I even got sick will changing it and had to open up the 1,000 sf garage to get air it was so bad. That OEM ATF was toast at 21,000, no hitch and no sign of any kind of hauling. The whole back of the Rav4 was like it came off the showroom floor.






That's not my experience at all. I changed the Dex 6 at 50,000 miles-25,000 miles of which was towing my 5,500 pound travel trailer around the country. Even at 50K-it still looked nice and red. And this was with high tranny temps under some towing conditions.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
It is not uncommon for the OE to use an oil filter that is not available for sale on a new engine. If you still have that filter and are over the miles then no warranty. They have also been known to put a special die tracer in the oil. They can ask for receipts, and should you hand over a receipt for wrong oil, they can invalidate warranty if oil was responsible for the failure.

I know of a young man that never changed his Kia oil. At 30K he needed a new motor, and his warranty was denied.

Rod


As well it should be .

You can not fix stupid !

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Lots of folklore regarding dealerships and oil issues. In almost 50 years of personal and commercial vehicle ownership, including some warranty repairs, I have never experienced or even heard of a dealer shop asking for evidence of oil type, brand, invoices, etc. Even if they were to ask for an invoice from me, I buy all my oil, even for my personal vehicles, from my commercial oil supplier. An invoice would have a laundry list of oils on it. There is no way they tell from that what oil I put in the vehicle. Now I am a bit of a stickler in keeping records of oil changes and such, but that is part of doing business.


We do it all the time for cars that have oil consumption issues.

 

[Garak]

There's nothing wrong with protecting oneself, but I think we worry a bit much. If we haven't heard about warranty denials based upon viscosity here, of all places, they likely are exceedingly rare. We do hear of people getting a bit of a hard time over filters, or at least TSBs mentioning them in a few situations.

mightymousetech: For what you mention, that would make sense. It's pretty easy to exaggerate. "The thing burned like 10 litres of oil in 5000 km," when they actually bought like one litre.

 

[Andrew1972]

Subaru has questioned some WRX owners about oil changes when motors go boom and they have no service history with dealer.

 

[Danh]

I dunno. If you have a dealer that is under OEM scrutiny for high warranty costs and/or one with which you don't have a great relationship, it doesn't seem too far a stretch to believe they'd ask for proof of oil changes and jump on any reason (e.g. wrong viscosity) to deny a claim.

And yes, theoretically the OEM would have to "prove" the wrong viscosity caused the problem. But contesting this "proof" could be a long, expensive proposition for an mdicidual,owner. Maybe it's overkill but I'll stick with and document the recommended OCI and viscosity through warranty even though I'd like to go up a grade.

 

[HemiHawk]

Better safe than sorry with proof. I plan on changing my GTIs oil every 5k miles, then having the dealer change it at the suggested 10k intervals. That way there is no way they can deny anything engine related for the life of the powertrain warranty. I've never done this with any vehicle before, but with some of the issues these things have, and the cost to repair, I don't want to give them any reasons to deny the claim.

I would bet in the cases of turbo failures documentation is pretty important. It would be very easy for a dealer to say "your turbo is shot, where is the proof of oil changes?" "oh you dont have any? turbos on you".