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Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? #4491266
08/17/17 04:15 PM
08/17/17 04:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
This is a serious weird issue.

Anybody know what's going wrong with the cylinders and/or rings? Thermal warping (uneven cooling) maybe? Metallurgy problem?

Wow, that smoking TSB should be a full-blown recall, but I guess people will bring it in if symptoms are there (disturbing symptoms!) and your Ford dealership is sharp enough to know the TSB exists. Many times service writers don't even know there is a TSB in the large sea of TSB's they have.
Here is a summary of the text from the TSB:
FORD:
2016 F-150
ISSUE
Some 2016 F-150 vehicles equipped with a 2.7L gasoline turbocharged direct injection (GTDI) engine and built on 1-
Apr-2016 and through 1-Oct-2016 may exhibit white or blue smoke from the exhaust, rough idle in neutral or park at
normal operating temperature or after a hot restart. The vehicle may also exhibit diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0300,
P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306, P0316, P0524 and/or P06DD with the excessive oil consumption. Oil
consumption may be 1 Liter (1 quart) in less than 4,800 km (3,000 miles).
ACTION
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Connect the Ford Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) service tool or equivalent scan tool to the data link connector
(DLC). Check for DTC P0524 and/or P06DD with any misfire codes stored in the powertrain control module (PCM)
memory?
a. Yes - replace the engine long block assembly. Refer to Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-01.
b. No - replace the cylinder heads. Refer to WSM, Section 303-01.


--------------

"I bought my new F150 XL Supercab 2.7 Ecoboost on November 12, 2016. Truck went through 3 quarts of oil before its 5,000 mile service. My dealer said that was normal for these high tolerance, high performance engines. I asked if the white/blue smoke was normal also and was told they hadn't heard anything about that, to which I said I must have the first one. My 5,000 mile service was on April 15, 2017 with 4,966 miles on the truck. " -- https://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=123809

Its amazing what I've heard dealers tell people over the last 30 years. I'm no longer surprised, yet always disgusted. These are car people saying stuff like this. Grown adults. Just wow.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491275
08/17/17 04:22 PM
08/17/17 04:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,091
USA
NHGUY Offline
NHGUY  Offline
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,091
USA
You expect car companies to tell the truth? That would make them liable,and open to lawsuits,and lemon law buyouts.Dont want to get lied to,dont buy a new vehicle.If it can make it to 60-80K without falling apart,it might make it another 60-80K.Buy new and maybe have it blow up by 30K.....

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491276
08/17/17 04:25 PM
08/17/17 04:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
I just found this: "dealt with engioneering hotline on one at work, they stated failing valve guides. oil pressure concerns are due to the oil level dropping enough to start to starve the pump of oil.
original TSB we replaced with a longblock if there was any sigs of oil pressure codes stored. now with the new TSB we have to fill oil and test oil pressure if the codes are there. if it passes you just get heads"
-- from a f150 forum https://www.f150forum.com/f118/2016-17-f...-2077-a-381323/ if you want to read a million posts

So I guess the valve guides go first (bad metal hardening maybe in there), then oil level drops, which could starve the rings of oil pump flow, then you get the ruined cylinders/rings blowing more oil out the exhaust.

More info may be forthcoming.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491286
08/17/17 04:31 PM
08/17/17 04:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,611
Santa Barbara, CA
bdcardinal Offline
bdcardinal  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,611
Santa Barbara, CA
FWIW it isn't the service writer's job to look up TSBs. When the technician hooks up the IDS and the vehicle info is loaded, any applicable TSBs will be presented. Service writer is just there to take your order and tell you the status when requested.


2014 Ford Mustang GT Track Pack
1995 Ford Mustang GT

Ford/Mazda Parts Counter
NRA Benefactor Member
Opinions expressed are my own.
Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491289
08/17/17 04:33 PM
08/17/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
By reading the TSB and the F-150 Forum, this is what I THINK MAY BE happening. The heads are using oil, either through defective guides or seals. In some cases it happens so fast, the lower end gets screwed from lack of oil. The lack of oil is screwing with the VVT, which causes rough idle.
What I can't figure is how this happens so fast. I can't imagine ALL of the guides or seals failing at once.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491291
08/17/17 04:33 PM
08/17/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 411
D/FW Metroplex
The_Nuke Offline
The_Nuke  Offline
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Posts: 411
D/FW Metroplex
Sounds a lot like the Pentastar cylinder head debacle FCA can't seem to figure out and certainly won't release any info on.

FYI: a recall is only issued if the defect or problem is deemed so bad it endangers the driver's life or could cause serious injury to them or their passengers.

So while things like this and the Pentastar cylinder head issue and the 90's Chevy transmission circuit board f-ups should all have been identified by the car makers when they realized there was a serious problem, and then promptly fixed free of charge, that is just not ever going to happen if they are forced to handle it that way. And they are only forced to handle things that way when there is an official recall.

otherwise, the car makers are perfectly happy to put out these vague TSBs for problems known only to them at first, and then by their techs as the scuttlebutt spreads and the TSBs are deciphered.

Not wanting to accidently give the public any useful details about what's going on or how to avoid it, you can bet your last dollar the car makers will then set about choking off any other sources of information regarding the issues in question.

Oh sure, they'll issue a statement maybe if the public get's riled up, but you can bet it will be released on a Friday where everybody will miss it anyway or forget about it by the following Monday. And they will dang sure have their crafty department of psychopaths in the marketing dept. draft any released statement in such a way so that it says the absolute least and offers no inkling about what is going on or how to keep it from happening. While at the same time making it sound like they truly care about their customers.

That's a bunch of BEE ESS!!!

It sux, but it's the way things are...and likely always will be.


2012 Charger Pursuit aka "The Bacon Hauler"
- 5.7L + NAG1 (A5) + 2.62 (215mm)
Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: bigj_16] #4491298
08/17/17 04:40 PM
08/17/17 04:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 411
D/FW Metroplex
The_Nuke Offline
The_Nuke  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 411
D/FW Metroplex
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
By reading the TSB and the F-150 Forum, this is what I THINK MAY BE happening. The heads are using oil, either through defective guides or seals. In some cases it happens so fast, the lower end gets screwed from lack of oil. The lack of oil is screwing with the VVT, which causes rough idle.
What I can't figure is how this happens so fast. I can't imagine ALL of the guides or seals failing at once.


Referencing my last post in this thread - The failing heads on the Pentastars all fail due to misfires caused by bad valve seats IIRC. And the underlying culprit is apparently a casting problem. But the thing is, they've gone through several iterations of head castings, and it's still occurring. They also won't tell anyone what causes the failure to happen in one head but not another. And they won't tell anyone any tips to keep it from occurring in their own vehicles.

I'm not saying these two problems are identical, but there are certain aspects to both that make me think there are other similar aspects to these cases.

- they don't have a true, 100% identified cause for the bad parts; and therefore they don't know exactly what needs to be fixed.
- if they do know what needs to be fixed, they don't know how it is getting "broken" and thus do not know how to go about preventing it from happening in the first place.
- they are deathly afraid of the general public (those who are customers or potential customers) getting wind of the story for fear it will crater that segment of their sales (social media wildfire, etc.)

Who knows, it will certainly be interesting to learn what is finally fingered as the culprit in this one, if anything ever is...


2012 Charger Pursuit aka "The Bacon Hauler"
- 5.7L + NAG1 (A5) + 2.62 (215mm)
Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491300
08/17/17 04:42 PM
08/17/17 04:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
What drew my attention to this was I drove to school one day(28 miles, mainly highway). Had about 1500 miles on the truck. Nice day, 70 degrees. I parked about 9:30 a.m. Very dry, had not rained for weeks. When I came back about 2.5 hours later, on start up I noticed blue smoke. I literally thought it was someone beside me. It was a fairly big cloud. Then I noticed none of the cars around me had anyone in them, and that the smoke was coming from me. Then I read the TSB thread on the F-150 forum. My wife's truck did it later with about 3k miles. It had set all week in the garage. Neither has had any real consumption, except mine on the road trip, which was 2800 miles at 80-85. It used a quart or so, which isn't out of the ordinary for those conditions.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491305
08/17/17 04:52 PM
08/17/17 04:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
Love this statement from an F150 forum (very revealing):
"This is from the service procedure provided to me:
When the heads are examined the valve guides are being measured and inspected for a wear pattern that "is typically shaped like an hour glass". An hour glass wear pattern would be caused by the valve ~sort of~ "pivoting" or "rocking" in the guide. The guides are not serviceable so the heads must be replaced."

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: The_Nuke] #4491310
08/17/17 04:58 PM
08/17/17 04:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
Originally Posted By: The_Nuke
FYI: a recall is only issued if the defect or problem is deemed so bad it endangers the driver's life or could cause serious injury to them or their passengers

I've seen full recalls, not just TSBs, as a "Customer Satisfaction" recall. My 2016 Ford Focus Electric has one of those free upgrades. Not an actual breaking part, but an upgrade, and they mailed out Recall Notices. Not an NHTSA recall to be sure (just a modem upgrade for the Focus).

To be fair to Ford, they only want people to come in for repairs, under warranty, if they actually see a problem with their 2.7L ecoboost.
We could argue that Ford should send letters out to ALL 2.7L ecoboost owners to "be on the lookout for oil consumption and/or smoke" issues.
Yet that would be alarmist and maybe unnecessarily malign their machine quality, they feel!!!

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491313
08/17/17 05:06 PM
08/17/17 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
I've seen so many problems over the last few years (recalls, failing parts) because improper or no carbonitriding or other metal hardening techniques.
Timing chains, and I have a current differential spider gear shaft Ford recall pending for my car.
This has got to be an RCA (root cause anlysis) pointing to an uneducated factory worker and/or Quality Process Control asleep at the parts supplier factory for those valve stems or guides.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491315
08/17/17 05:06 PM
08/17/17 05:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
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Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
The TSB has been updated on build date. I think it goes to sometime in January of 2017 now.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491317
08/17/17 05:12 PM
08/17/17 05:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I've seen so many problems over the last few years (recalls, failing parts) because improper or no carbonitriding or other metal hardening techniques.
Timing chains, and I have a current differential spider gear shaft Ford recall pending for my car.
This has got to be an RCA (root cause anlysis) pointing to an uneducated factory worker and/or Quality Process Control asleep at the parts supplier factory for those valve stems or guides.

A lot of this originates in China. If the company's Q/A guys don't sit on top of the factory, they will substitute inferior metals or skip steps. You can get good stuff out of China, metal wise, but it's a [censored] shoot.

Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4491329
08/17/17 05:35 PM
08/17/17 05:35 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 146
New York Queens
Ram02 Offline
Ram02  Offline
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 146
New York Queens
That sucks people paying a lot of coin for these trucks and there's been a lot of problems with ecoboost V6's
I hope Ford find a solution quick


2013 Malibu 2LT M1 5w30
2013 Accord Sport M1 AP 0w20
Re: Blown 2.7L Ecoboost Engines -TSB, What Root Cause? [Re: Ram02] #4491367
08/17/17 06:32 PM
08/17/17 06:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline OP
oil_film_movies  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
Originally Posted By: Ram02
That sucks people paying a lot of coin for these trucks and there's been a lot of problems with ecoboost V6's
I hope Ford find a solution quick
Ummm, Ford could buy & install GM pushrod V8's in their pickup trucks instead.... hide

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