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#4491133 - 08/17/17 02:26 PM 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Oil is misidentified as Amsoil in the most recent analysis (left). It's Schaeffer's 7000 15w-40.

I used an LF9028 dual flow bypass filter here. At this point, I've done enough on this engine with the dual flow. Just ordered a true external bypass system for this engine.

Even though it's over 26k miles on an OCI, I don't like seeing iron in the 50's, but tracks perfectly against previous UOA.

Currently running Schaeffer 9000 5w-40 that I got on a deal, but think I'll go back to and stay with Amsoil Marine and Diesel 15w-40 and run in through the external bypass.


Edited by DoubleWasp (08/17/17 02:29 PM)
Edit Reason: Forgot durned attachment
_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4491185 - 08/17/17 03:30 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 7094
Loc: Colorado
Looks like some nice wear; what were the UOA numbers with Amsoil? I'm also in the middle of a test between the two.
_________________________
Thick vs Thin test: 15k / 43k miles complete

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#4491209 - 08/17/17 03:57 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Actual Amsoil is on the right, Schaeffer's on the left.

I should also not that I have full delete and an EFI Live tune.

Makeup oil was 1.5 quarts over the full OCI.

Kind of felt like I should have changed out the filter in the middle of the OCi, but no big deal. I'm doing the bypass shortly.
_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4491517 - 08/17/17 11:49 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
motor_oil_madman Offline


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 4718
Loc: Houston, Texas
So the one on the left is CJ-4 Schaefers, huh?
_________________________
2007.5 dodge cummins 6.7 liter. Chevron Delo400 15w40. 7000 mile or 250-300hr intervals.


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#4491541 - 08/18/17 01:34 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Correct.
_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4491586 - 08/18/17 05:48 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 20244
Loc: Upstate NY
Looks good to me. Not sure a true bypass will make that big a difference for the iron.
_________________________
2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)


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#4491591 - 08/18/17 06:09 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
dnewton3 Online   content



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7360
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Actually that is some very good performance from the lube and filter.

I realize you're squeamish a bit over the 50ppm of Fe, but that is a tad less than 2ppm/1k miles. That is a VERY attractive wear rate! All the other wear metals are almost non-existent. The TBN is strong. The contamination is low. That sample was no where near a condemnation limit that Cummins would recognize.
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Documents/UsedOil%5C2008020.pdf
page 11 has the limits that Cummins recommends.
They limit soot at 3%; you were about 1/2 that.
They limit Fe up to 100ppm; you were 1/2 that.
They limit other metals at 15-30ppm; yours were less than 1/2 that, in single digits for goodness sake.
They limit TBN at 2; you're more more than twice that.
They limit fuel at 5%; you were less than 1%.


Some are going to roll their eyes, but that lube was still serviceable. Very serviceable. Conceivably could double that 26k miles to around 50k? I understand that you OFCI'd and you're going back to Amsoil and a different BP system. But there was absolutely nothing wrong with what you were previously using. Nothing at all. You paid for the data; don't ignore it!







Edited by dnewton3 (08/18/17 06:10 AM)
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

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#4491601 - 08/18/17 06:23 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
Bighorn2500 Offline


Registered: 05/24/16
Posts: 295
Loc: Michigan, USA
Did you run the Fleetguard LF9028 the entire 26K or was it changed out at at any point during the duration?
_________________________
2012 Ram 2500 SLT 6.7L Cummins 4x4
2015 Jeep Cherokee 3.2L Latitude 4x4

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#4491712 - 08/18/17 09:02 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: dnewton3]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
D, that's why I post these things. Have to make sure I'm not just crazy or find out if i am lol. I haven't gone back to Amsoil yet. I'm running a fresh fill of Schaeffer CJ-4 5w-40 full syn right now, with another LF9028. If it does as well as this semi-syn, then I'll not need to consider doing it again until late 2018. Suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Ran same LF9028 for entire OCI. Filter was not changed at any point.

I'm going to cut my old one open and post soon.

_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4492513 - 08/19/17 05:12 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
dnewton3 Online   content



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7360
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
My apologies; I misread it. I presumed you had already made to move back to Amsoil.

These results are hard to argue with; fantastic numbers nowhere near condemnation on any level.

As just a point of conversation, could Amsoil do "better"? Possibly. But it would be really hard to do "better" than this "near perfect" result. When you get data this strong, it's hard to turn away from the truth; this combo flat works. Now, it's entirely possible that another brand of oil and filter could do this well. You'd have to test it and see. But the wear in this sample is telling you that the extended OFCIs are not harming a darn thing; EVERYTHING is in order here. This fluid could easily be still in use. Would it go 50k miles? Maybe ... maybe not. But it could certainly got close to that. You'd not really know if the wear rates would escalate or not, causing the Fe ppm to accelerate or not. But there's a reasonable mantra here to say that at 26k miles, you were approximately 1/2 way to the Cummins limits. And do NOT, in any manner, consider the condemnation limits that Cummins sets to be detrimental. It's not like the engine is going to puke and die if it sees 100ppm of Fe, or 3% of soot. Those are limits that Cummins set to trigger an OFCI for the continued safe operation of the engine. Those limits do NOT represent where damage happens; they represent trigger points for an OFCI that assures safe operation is nearing it's end. But it's not AT it's end. So it is VERY conceivable that 40k, 45k, perhaps 50k miles is doable here with this combo you've got.

On this combo of the Fleetguard and Schaeffers, I'd run UOAs every 10k miles, and track the wear rates and contamination, etc. If you're into extending the OCIs, (which you apparently are), then use the data to your best advantage. Trust the data and what it tells you!

The grand irony I see in some BITOGers actions is that IF they use UOAs, they will often OFCI based on their own condemnation limits; limits that are artificially low and resoundingly too conservative. When a UOA clearly shows a problem, they will act on it. But when a UOA shows everything is desirable, they will still OFCI based on their "intuition" and not continue the OFCI based on the data. It becomes an act of hypocrisy; they trust the data when it shows something is wrong, but they don't trust the data when it shows everything is right. I'm not saying this to taunt or otherwise deride you. It's just human nature to always want a "perfect" situation for something we care about and have paid a lot of money for. But the DATA you pay for is telling you that you're only about 1/2 way to condemnation as Cummins sees it. And is it your position that you know better than them? shrug Cummins does not set condemnation limits at the danger point; they set them PRIOR to the danger points. So it's perfectly acceptable and even desirable to run UP TO those limits if you're into OCI extensions. If not, then why are you doing UOAs in the first place? UOAs are not supposed to be toys; they are tools. If you know/understand how to use the tool, then it's silly not to do what the tool tells you is safe and pragmatic. Again - I'm not lambasting you here; that's not my intent. Rather, I guess I'm preaching the gospel of UOAs and their true nature of use, to not just you but anyone who listens with an open mind.

I applaud how far you've gone; you're going where few are willing to travel and you are to be commended for it!
Just know that the data is telling you that you're actually only about 1/2 way to the end of a perfectly safe journey. thumbsup


Edited by dnewton3 (08/19/17 05:12 AM)
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

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#4493917 - 08/20/17 06:58 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
I got it. See, that's the only thing about UOA dsta, is knowing how to apply it. I get it now.

Thanks a lot.

The incorrect assumption I made here is that because lead and chromium had begun to make an appearance where they were both immeasurable before, that I had presumably screwed the pooch a little. I see now what you mean.

I'm definitely going to stay on top of my UOAs at 10k intervals from here on out.

What would you say would be the means of determining whether or not I should be changing my filter mid-OCI? I noticed that ALS has a box for filter patch results. Worth it to have a filter analysis done to see just how much the LF9028 is getting worked? If so, any recommendations for a lab to do the analysis?

I'm assuming that analysis of the "stacked disc" section would be something else entirely, but I could be wrong again.

If I could get the Schaeffer/LF9028 combo to a solid, scientific conclusion, that would be great.
_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4493921 - 08/20/17 07:03 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
dnewton3 Online   content



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7360
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Using the UOA for filter changes is a bit of an educated guesstimate. PCs are better at this, but they also up the cost, too. I'd say, when doing the UOAs at 10k miles, watch the soot count. If it jumps up at an escalated rate, then I'd back down a bit for the next FCI. If the soot stays low, and the wear rates are decent, the filter is probably just fine. I'd watch the soot in each UOA and see if you can find a trend line that helps predict a sane FCI. The Fleetguard double media filter will likely succumb at the finite filter element first, before the full flow, so it's not like it would go into perpetual bypass; no concern there. So just watch the soot and see if you can find FCI that supports the desired result. Soot is likely to tract reasonably consistently, unless you experience wild swings in use factors.



Edited by dnewton3 (08/20/17 07:09 PM)
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

Top
#4493923 - 08/20/17 07:06 PM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: DoubleWasp]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5227
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Makes sense. Let the contaminants tell the tale.
_________________________
07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio

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#4600583 - 12/11/17 11:07 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: Donald]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 5714
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Donald
Looks good to me. Not sure a true bypass will make that big a difference for the iron.


That is exactly what I was thinking.

Cummins engines "make" iron numbers.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4600589 - 12/11/17 11:13 AM Re: 2007.5 Ram Cummins 6.7, 26k mi, Schaeffer 15w40 [Re: dnewton3]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 5714
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

The grand irony I see in some BITOGers actions is that IF they use UOAs, they will often OFCI based on their own condemnation limits; limits that are artificially low and resoundingly too conservative. When a UOA clearly shows a problem, they will act on it. But when a UOA shows everything is desirable, they will still OFCI based on their "intuition" and not continue the OFCI based on the data. It becomes an act of hypocrisy;


VERY TRUE.

I also just don't "get" the folks running $8 a quart oil and a $10 filter - - then changing both at 5,000 miles. Those people don't even need to be members here. They have "already got it all figured out", LOL!
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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