MaxLife ATF and expansion when hot

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Some of you may remember I had a thread recently about using MaxLife in a DW-1 application (my Pilot). So I did a D&F last week and poured in 4 qts of MaxLife since 4 qts of DW-1 came out. I had a heck of a time getting a proper reading on the dipstick for the next few days. Followed all the steps in the manual: fully warmed up, run through the gears, level ground, check dipstick b/w 60-90 sec after shutting off engine. I finally got a reading that showed the level at the 2nd dot (H) mark. I said cool and moved on. Drove the car around town and the shifts were fine.

I went on a 200 mile trip this weekend and noticed the tranny shifting oddly about 50 miles in -- when everything was fully hot. At times, when going around curves or passing someone, the tranny felt like it was slipping. I knew something was wrong since the shifts were always butter smooth with DW-1.

Today, I pulled the dipstick after a 10 mile trip running errands and the level was now above the H mark. I used a food syringe and length of aquarium tubing from Walmart and took out 300 mL of ATF via the dipstick tube. Went for a drive and now the level reads a little below the H mark. Got to wait until another long drive to see if the slipping returns.

It's strange that the tranny was overfilled with MaxLife even though I added the exact amount that came out -- supposedly the most foolproof way to do a D&F. And yes, the level was good before I did the D&F.

Does ML expand differently than DW-1? I'm not an ATF expert but ML does have a different viscosity than DW-1; not-to-mention ML is a full syn ATF, unlike DW-1.
 
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My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

We typically don't factor in 20 vs. 40 grade motor oil when adding 5-6 qts. Not sure why there should be any difference in volume expansion in similar grade ATF's.
 
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
My understanding was that both Max Life and DW1 were both in the 5.8-6.0 cSt viscosity range at 100 deg C (ie both are typical LV ATF's). Isn't DW1 at least a semi-synthetic?

DW-1: 6.835 cSt @100C
MaxLife: 5.91 cSt @100C

Yes, DW-1 is a semi-syn here in the States.
 
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Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?


This is a pertinent question.

I changed the DexronVI on my (sold) Chevy Cruze by draining it COLD and replacing the exact amount that came out and I had no problems. I had read that if I drained it WARM or HOT it would be difficult to measure correctly because of fluid expansion so I drained it COLD...I would guess this might be your problem because Maxlife should work well in a Honda DW1 spec'd AT.
 
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.
Originally Posted By: Charlie2015
4 quarts seems like too much for a honda v6 drain and fill - usually takes about 3.5 quarts.

Service manual says 3.6 qts for a D&F. I had exactly 4 come out; probably since my driveway has a slight slope. Folks on the Pilot forum say it's not uncommon for 4 qts to come out.
 
Probably not all that helpful - but I had a similar problems reading the dipstick on my 09 CRV (also using Maxlife). I didn't measure what came out, but ended up putting back over 4 quarts total. (I also expected the 3.6 quarts, so I'm guessing the pan is about the same size).

My thought was that the Honda procedure leads to inconsistent readings, combined with the fact that the bend on the tube makes it difficult to read. I did mine in cooler weather and had difficulty getting any reading - my guess was it was probably underfilled on a previous service. I had to get the trans really hot (20 + minute drive at speed) to even reach the full line with a consistent reading.

If it's bothering you, maybe try a cold reading and compare to when hot. I know this isn't the procedure, but it gave me the warm fuzzy that I hadn't completely overfilled because the warm readings were so inconsistent. I would love to know why Honda has such an odd procedure - I mainly drove domestics before this, and they always mandated a read with engine on.
 
D&F exact amount on warm ATF - all bets are off. There is no way you can get the volume right.
Always D&F on a dead cold engine knowing that the ATF hasn't expanded in volume.
 
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted By: mclasser
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Did you change the ATF when the trans was warm or cold?

It was warm.


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife
smile.gif



Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.
 
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife
smile.gif



Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
L
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


There you go! You replaced 4 warm quarts of DW1 with 4 cold quarts of Maxlife.

Even if you used DW1 again, replacing a warm gallon with a cold gallon would've result in the same dipstick result you got with Maxlife
smile.gif



Agreed. I did exactly what you did. The fluid you remove needs to be the same temp as what you put back in.
Hot fluid has greater volume.


It does not matter in the least what the temperature of any vehicle fluid is when it is drained and I would say getting it warm by running the engine first is benficial to get particlulates in suspension.

The only thing that matters is that the drained fluid is allowed to cool to the same temperature as the replacement fluid. They can both be kept in a refrigerator or left on a shop shelf of placed on the kitchen table next to the gravy as long as it is for a sufficient time to allow them to reach the same temperature prior to measuring volume.

grin.gif



I agree. I would drain it warm after a drive, so some of the contaminants, wear metals, etc. are in suspension. Drain and collect the fluid, and allow it to cool to ambient temperature. I would have the fluid I plan to use sitting at ambient temperature as well. Once both fluids are at the same temperature measure the collected fluid and add that amount in fresh fluid back.
 
I usually do D&F in my Hondas without warming them up. I guess most clutch material is already trapped by the magnetic drain plug. Never had an issue with fluid level (same amount that comes out goes in).
 
Can only relate experience I've had doing many d&fs over the years on Hondas, mostly with ML. I do drain after engine been at operating temperature. I'd add if one has never done a d&f before, a good idea to check the ATF level as OM instructed prior to the first drain.

Then drain and measure amount that comes out, and fill with equal amount. Then bring engine back up to operating temperature by driving and taking trans through the gears. Then check with dip stick during 30 second window and top up as needed. 'Technically' instructions say wait till radiator fan comes on at idle, to check level. I prefer to drive the vehicle after the drain and fill then check.

So never experienced anything similar to OP. I've only gone from Z1 to ML, but I can't see how DW1 would be that different.
 
You can also verify normal cold level before even starting a D&F. Next time it's cold it should be at that same level on the dip stick. I've done numerous cold checks since my D&F last year. And it's always right at the same point...though it reads an inch or so above the full line when cold which is expected....it's consistent and an easy check when cold. In my case, it reads cold at the letters "ss" in "cross hatch area" stamped on the dip stick.
 
The easiest way to do this is by weight - no temperature compensation issues - pick up a scale at HF. Put the same weight in as you took out.
 
I've always done warm/hot drains and filled back up with cold/ambient temp fluid. I do a "cold" level check to verify there's enough to safely drive off and a hot check after 10-15 miles of driving. I've had to top off here and there but it's never failed me.
 
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