Transparancy in oil descriptions

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With the confusion that surrounds labeling. I wonder if anyone has attempted to do the legwork or even if it's possible to publish a list of synthetic oils and what their major base oil components and their percentages. As a consumer I want to know if I am spending money on class III base versus IV or V and the percentage of each. I'm not speaking to the relative quality or performance of any specific oil. I just wonder if say the Walmart brand 10w30 synthetic does or doesn't have the same basic makeup of a name brand at half the cost. One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395 and I can get oil for that specification in the synthetic branded types from about $4 to $12 a quart. Most of the synthetics are bunched around the $6/qt range. For example: Is the $7/qt Castrol syntec with 95% class III a better deal than the Walmart labeled brand with 95% class III for $4/qt? On any given day the Walmart may be produced by any number of different manufacturers so the specific assay may change a bit.With that being said it would be difficult to do an apples to apples comparison but you should still be able to ascertain who is profiting the most fro ambiguous labeling.
I'm not saying that one oil is better than the other. I'm wondering if I'm being gouged and by how much and from who?
 
You are not going to get any straight answers.

I just buy m1 pp when the rebates are there.
Its like 3 dollar a quart.
 
Originally Posted By: sloinker
With the confusion that surrounds labeling. I wonder if anyone has attempted to do the legwork or even if it's possible to publish a list of synthetic oils and what their major base oil components and their percentages. As a consumer I want to know if I am spending money on class III base versus IV or V and the percentage of each. I'm not speaking to the relative quality or performance of any specific oil. I just wonder if say the Walmart brand 10w30 synthetic does or doesn't have the same basic makeup of a name brand at half the cost. One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395 and I can get oil for that specification in the synthetic branded types from about $4 to $12 a quart. Most of the synthetics are bunched around the $6/qt range. For example: Is the $7/qt Castrol syntec with 95% class III a better deal than the Walmart labeled brand with 95% class III for $4/qt? On any given day the Walmart may be produced by any number of different manufacturers so the specific assay may change a bit.With that being said it would be difficult to do an apples to apples comparison but you should still be able to ascertain who is profiting the most fro ambiguous labeling.
I'm not saying that one oil is better than the other. I'm wondering if I'm being gouged and by how much and from who?


First post.

You're going to like it here.

grin.gif
 
You're not being gouged, you're being marketed to.

If it meets a spec, then it meets the spec. Some oils do exceed specs, or carry multiple tough specs like dexos1 or some of the Porsche and bmw specs. From knowing that a certain oil meets a certain spec we can make educated guesses about its content. A VOA can indicate additive concentrations. So we can have a rough idea of an oils composition.

As far as getting the kind of labeling you are asking for? It will not happen unless somehow mandated. Its proprietary information for each oil blender.

Read up on specs and you'll be able to make better estimations and comparisons between oils.

Supertech full syn meets dexos1. So does M1 5w-30. Both claim "synthetic" which is just a marketing term. Dexos1 means they both have passed the tests specified by the spec. That is what proves they are good oils.

Now is one better than the other? Maybe. But they both met the standard and that is what matters.

Marketing is there to make you want it more. Meeting a spec proves it will work in a given application.
 
100% versus Full versus just Synthetic and the inherent worth of the ingredients compared to the actual costs of its inherent ingredients.
 
I came across another place that sells ester/pao oil called MTP. Haven't really researched them yet. I'm not hung up on any formulation. Just curious who is making the most profit over the cheapest ingredients. They actually show some relative information in their MSDS.Gives you a broad idea of the ingredients versus most manufacturers where it's just a guess. Pricey like Red Line and Amsoil.

http://mptindustries.com/msds/MSDSThirty-KMotorOil.pdf

http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/automotive.htm
 
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I guess it depends on what severity of service you are going to put the oil through.

"One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395" - If you race it a lot, it matters. If you just drive it 40 miles to work each day, it really DOESN'T matter.

However, ever between same brands it's hard to tell =
I have read on here that Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy has more PAO than Extended Performance. Does that REALLY make it "better"?

I just wish oils marketed as synthetic blend actually gave the % of blend.
 
Keep in mind that doing short oci's will also level the playing field and make all that PAO/Ester/GrpIII less important. I'd go the cheap oil with good specs but where I live the home brand [censored] is often as expensive as the big brand names so it's worth waiting for sales on the big names.

FYI I don't get caught up in the group3 vs PAO etc. The approvals on the back mean more. The best bang for buck for me was castrol edge at $5 per L with MB229.5, LL01, A3/B4, VW505/502 approvals. API SL only because they didn't want to weaken the ZDDP levels for SN.
 
Originally Posted By: sloinker
100% versus Full versus just Synthetic and the inherent worth of the ingredients compared to the actual costs of its inherent ingredients.

How about the inherent specifications the oil may inherently meet or not meet?

Base stock composition is mostly irrelevant in my opinion.
 
Maybe not, but you are certainly hung up on base stock and price as markers for presumed performance, neither one of which are reliable indicators.

Originally Posted By: sloinker
I came across another place that sells ester/pao oil called MTP. Haven't really researched them yet. I'm not hung up on any formulation. Just curious who is making the most profit over the cheapest ingredients. They actually show some relative information in their MSDS.Gives you a broad idea of the ingredients versus most manufacturers where it's just a guess. Pricey like Red Line and Amsoil.

http://mptindustries.com/msds/MSDSThirty-KMotorOil.pdf

http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/automotive.htm
 
When we buy juice for the kids my wife always get's the 100% fruit juice product. It costs more because the ingredients cost more than water or corn syrup and the additive package called flavoring found in many cheaper competing brands, some of which do indeed contain a percentage of real fruit juice. Is it better for you than flavored sugar water? Maybe. Can you drink the sugar water for a long time and still be a functional human being? Probably. Should we save that money every month and get the cheapest product? That's a personal preference, same as motor oil is. If I am going to be a consumer of any product I want to know what I am buying so I can get some idea of value versus cost. Labeling practices on motor oils is abysmal.
 
Originally Posted By: sloinker
When we buy juice for the kids my wife always get's the 100% fruit juice product. It costs more because the ingredients cost more than water or corn syrup and the additive package called flavoring found in many cheaper competing brands, some of which do indeed contain a percentage of real fruit juice. Is it better for you than flavored sugar water? Maybe. Can you drink the sugar water for a long time and still be a functional human being? Probably. Should we save that money every month and get the cheapest product? That's a personal preference, same as motor oil is. If I am going to be a consumer of any product I want to know what I am buying so I can get some idea of value versus cost. Labeling practices on motor oils is abysmal.

That analogy is nowhere near equal to synthetic labeling, unless you are suggesting that synthetic oils are watered down with Group I or Group II oils?
 
The analogy is correct. I'm not making the argument that one is better than the other. I am making the argument that the cost of the synthetics containing little or no IV or V isn't representative of value for the consumer. Same as spending more for premium grade gas such as Chevron's Techron. Most cars don't need it but marketing, perceived or actual benefit of the product sells it to consumers. Can you buy gasoline with little or no detergent and 10% ethanol? Will it work? Is it the best value for the money. Same questions can be said for motor oils that have even less transparancy in their labeling. I would like to know what I'm paying for.
 
Originally Posted By: sloinker
They actually show some relative information in their MSDS.Gives you a broad idea of the ingredients versus most manufacturers where it's just a guess.


Don't put too much value in the SDS. Those are only required to list 'harmful' components and if they are above 1% (or 0.1% if they are carcinogenic). They can also exclude components if they are proprietary.
 
Originally Posted By: sloinker
'm wondering if I'm being gouged and by how much and from who?


Buy the cheapest cost oil that meets your vehicle's specs and at least you're being gouged the least this way.
 
Originally Posted By: hallstevenson
Don't put too much value in the SDS. Those are only required to list 'harmful' components and if they are above 1% (or 0.1% if they are carcinogenic). They can also exclude components if they are proprietary.

Yes, this. As someone who used to write MSDS for a living I can tell you that no manufacturer will ever reveal trade secrets or competitively useful information in an MSDS. If ExxonMobil is secretive in revealing their composition in other marketing materials I will guarantee you their MSDS does not reveal the information.

Even more, if an MSDS can be written to achieve the purpose of informing first responders, firefighters and handlers with the necessary safety information but be deceptive to competitors about chemical composition then they will do it.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: hallstevenson
Don't put too much value in the SDS. Those are only required to list 'harmful' components and if they are above 1% (or 0.1% if they are carcinogenic). They can also exclude components if they are proprietary.

Yes, this. As someone who used to write MSDS for a living I can tell you that no manufacturer will ever reveal trade secrets or competitively useful information in an MSDS. If ExxonMobil is secretive in revealing their composition in other marketing materials I will guarantee you their MSDS does not reveal the information.

Even more, if an MSDS can be written to achieve the purpose of informing first responders, firefighters and handlers with the necessary safety information but be deceptive to competitors about chemical composition then they will do it.
They are not called MSDS anymore.
 
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