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Transparancy in oil descriptions #4487770
08/13/17 07:58 PM
08/13/17 07:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
sloinker Offline OP
sloinker  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
With the confusion that surrounds labeling. I wonder if anyone has attempted to do the legwork or even if it's possible to publish a list of synthetic oils and what their major base oil components and their percentages. As a consumer I want to know if I am spending money on class III base versus IV or V and the percentage of each. I'm not speaking to the relative quality or performance of any specific oil. I just wonder if say the Walmart brand 10w30 synthetic does or doesn't have the same basic makeup of a name brand at half the cost. One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395 and I can get oil for that specification in the synthetic branded types from about $4 to $12 a quart. Most of the synthetics are bunched around the $6/qt range. For example: Is the $7/qt Castrol syntec with 95% class III a better deal than the Walmart labeled brand with 95% class III for $4/qt? On any given day the Walmart may be produced by any number of different manufacturers so the specific assay may change a bit.With that being said it would be difficult to do an apples to apples comparison but you should still be able to ascertain who is profiting the most fro ambiguous labeling.
I'm not saying that one oil is better than the other. I'm wondering if I'm being gouged and by how much and from who?

Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487803
08/13/17 08:21 PM
08/13/17 08:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline
merconvvv  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
You are not going to get any straight answers.

I just buy m1 pp when the rebates are there.
Its like 3 dollar a quart.


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487804
08/13/17 08:22 PM
08/13/17 08:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: sloinker
With the confusion that surrounds labeling. I wonder if anyone has attempted to do the legwork or even if it's possible to publish a list of synthetic oils and what their major base oil components and their percentages. As a consumer I want to know if I am spending money on class III base versus IV or V and the percentage of each. I'm not speaking to the relative quality or performance of any specific oil. I just wonder if say the Walmart brand 10w30 synthetic does or doesn't have the same basic makeup of a name brand at half the cost. One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395 and I can get oil for that specification in the synthetic branded types from about $4 to $12 a quart. Most of the synthetics are bunched around the $6/qt range. For example: Is the $7/qt Castrol syntec with 95% class III a better deal than the Walmart labeled brand with 95% class III for $4/qt? On any given day the Walmart may be produced by any number of different manufacturers so the specific assay may change a bit.With that being said it would be difficult to do an apples to apples comparison but you should still be able to ascertain who is profiting the most fro ambiguous labeling.
I'm not saying that one oil is better than the other. I'm wondering if I'm being gouged and by how much and from who?


First post.

You're going to like it here.

grin


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487806
08/13/17 08:24 PM
08/13/17 08:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,755
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,755
Crawfordville FL
You're not being gouged, you're being marketed to.

If it meets a spec, then it meets the spec. Some oils do exceed specs, or carry multiple tough specs like dexos1 or some of the Porsche and bmw specs. From knowing that a certain oil meets a certain spec we can make educated guesses about its content. A VOA can indicate additive concentrations. So we can have a rough idea of an oils composition.

As far as getting the kind of labeling you are asking for? It will not happen unless somehow mandated. Its proprietary information for each oil blender.

Read up on specs and you'll be able to make better estimations and comparisons between oils.

Supertech full syn meets dexos1. So does M1 5w-30. Both claim "synthetic" which is just a marketing term. Dexos1 means they both have passed the tests specified by the spec. That is what proves they are good oils.

Now is one better than the other? Maybe. But they both met the standard and that is what matters.

Marketing is there to make you want it more. Meeting a spec proves it will work in a given application.


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487810
08/13/17 08:27 PM
08/13/17 08:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline
merconvvv  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
OP you are on luck as m1 and pennzoil and quaker state and valvoline have rebates going on right now !


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487843
08/13/17 08:49 PM
08/13/17 08:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
What exactly is the confusion is that surrounds labeling that you're referring to?


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: kschachn] #4487863
08/13/17 09:05 PM
08/13/17 09:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
sloinker Offline OP
sloinker  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
100% versus Full versus just Synthetic and the inherent worth of the ingredients compared to the actual costs of its inherent ingredients.

Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4487907
08/13/17 09:50 PM
08/13/17 09:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 780
Illinois, USA
Triton_330 Offline
Triton_330  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 780
Illinois, USA
As far as I know the brands of oil that typically use the most percentage of Ester base oil would have to be Redline and Motul.


2001 Ford F-150 XLT 4x4 5.4L V8 ~132k miles
-> PPHM 5w-20 w/Fram Ultra
1989 Chevrolet Camaro RS 5.0L TBI V8 ~48k miles
-> Milesyn SB 5w-30 w/Puro Boss
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: Triton_330] #4488017
08/14/17 01:16 AM
08/14/17 01:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
sloinker Offline OP
sloinker  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
I came across another place that sells ester/pao oil called MTP. Haven't really researched them yet. I'm not hung up on any formulation. Just curious who is making the most profit over the cheapest ingredients. They actually show some relative information in their MSDS.Gives you a broad idea of the ingredients versus most manufacturers where it's just a guess. Pricey like Red Line and Amsoil.

http://mptindustries.com/msds/MSDSThirty-KMotorOil.pdf

http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/automotive.htm

Last edited by sloinker; 08/14/17 01:25 AM.
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4488035
08/14/17 02:52 AM
08/14/17 02:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
I guess it depends on what severity of service you are going to put the oil through.

"One of my vehicles requires a Mopar spec 6395" - If you race it a lot, it matters. If you just drive it 40 miles to work each day, it really DOESN'T matter.

However, ever between same brands it's hard to tell =
I have read on here that Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy has more PAO than Extended Performance. Does that REALLY make it "better"?

I just wish oils marketed as synthetic blend actually gave the % of blend.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4488058
08/14/17 06:03 AM
08/14/17 06:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 551
South OZ
KL31 Offline
KL31  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 551
South OZ
Keep in mind that doing short oci's will also level the playing field and make all that PAO/Ester/GrpIII less important. I'd go the cheap oil with good specs but where I live the home brand [censored] is often as expensive as the big brand names so it's worth waiting for sales on the big names.

FYI I don't get caught up in the group3 vs PAO etc. The approvals on the back mean more. The best bang for buck for me was castrol edge at $5 per L with MB229.5, LL01, A3/B4, VW505/502 approvals. API SL only because they didn't want to weaken the ZDDP levels for SN.


95 MX-3 2.5L|Shell Helix Ultra 5W40|Wix 51356
04 Focus 1.8L|Wesfil Cooper WZ63|Valvoline MST 5W30
05 Kluger 3.3L|Wesfil Cooper WZ418|Magnatec 10W30 Semi Syn
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4488121
08/14/17 07:52 AM
08/14/17 07:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: sloinker
100% versus Full versus just Synthetic and the inherent worth of the ingredients compared to the actual costs of its inherent ingredients.

How about the inherent specifications the oil may inherently meet or not meet?

Base stock composition is mostly irrelevant in my opinion.


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4488123
08/14/17 07:53 AM
08/14/17 07:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
Maybe not, but you are certainly hung up on base stock and price as markers for presumed performance, neither one of which are reliable indicators.

Originally Posted By: sloinker
I came across another place that sells ester/pao oil called MTP. Haven't really researched them yet. I'm not hung up on any formulation. Just curious who is making the most profit over the cheapest ingredients. They actually show some relative information in their MSDS.Gives you a broad idea of the ingredients versus most manufacturers where it's just a guess. Pricey like Red Line and Amsoil.

http://mptindustries.com/msds/MSDSThirty-KMotorOil.pdf

http://mptindustries.com/mpt_products/automotive.htm


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: kschachn] #4488326
08/14/17 11:43 AM
08/14/17 11:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
sloinker Offline OP
sloinker  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 194
WY
When we buy juice for the kids my wife always get's the 100% fruit juice product. It costs more because the ingredients cost more than water or corn syrup and the additive package called flavoring found in many cheaper competing brands, some of which do indeed contain a percentage of real fruit juice. Is it better for you than flavored sugar water? Maybe. Can you drink the sugar water for a long time and still be a functional human being? Probably. Should we save that money every month and get the cheapest product? That's a personal preference, same as motor oil is. If I am going to be a consumer of any product I want to know what I am buying so I can get some idea of value versus cost. Labeling practices on motor oils is abysmal.

Re: Transparancy in oil descriptions [Re: sloinker] #4488334
08/14/17 11:52 AM
08/14/17 11:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,862
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: sloinker
When we buy juice for the kids my wife always get's the 100% fruit juice product. It costs more because the ingredients cost more than water or corn syrup and the additive package called flavoring found in many cheaper competing brands, some of which do indeed contain a percentage of real fruit juice. Is it better for you than flavored sugar water? Maybe. Can you drink the sugar water for a long time and still be a functional human being? Probably. Should we save that money every month and get the cheapest product? That's a personal preference, same as motor oil is. If I am going to be a consumer of any product I want to know what I am buying so I can get some idea of value versus cost. Labeling practices on motor oils is abysmal.

That analogy is nowhere near equal to synthetic labeling, unless you are suggesting that synthetic oils are watered down with Group I or Group II oils?


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
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