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#4487587 - 08/13/17 05:04 PM WOULD you guys take the time to read this.
Speak2Mountain Offline


Registered: 04/07/17
Posts: 343
Loc: Mississippi
and chime in about what you agree with and not.
thx........
I was in discussions with my friends in OZ who also run Direct Injection engines on the Mazdaspeed engines and they have reached this conclusion to avoid carbon buildup.

Do not change your oil every 3k or 5K. Go synthetic and change it every 10K.

Quote:
Why is it harmful to change the oil too frequently?

In a word; volatility. Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet valves and combustion chambers in gunk.

That black soot you see in your exhaust pipes, donít assume itís all caused by rich mixture. Excessive oil changing will contribute more soot.

The presence of oil in the intake also lowers the octane rating of your fuel leading to detonation.

The NOACK volatility test quantifies the extent of oil evaporation. The test standard - ASTM D5800 - 08 Standard Test Method for Evaporation Loss of Lubricating Oils by the Noack Method Ė also hints at another kind of danger associated with frequent oil changes where it states ďProcedure C, using the Selby-Noack apparatus, also permits collection of the volatile oil vapors for determination of their physical and chemical properties. Elemental analysis of the collected volatiles may be helpful in identifying components such as phosphorous, which has been linked to premature degradation of the emission system catalyst.Ē

A lot of phosphorous is lost in the initial boil-off phase of new oil and itís likely to be harming oxygen sensors and cats.

Engine manufacturers understand the problem and it would be easy for them to identify the type of damage done by over servicing and potentially result in a warranty claim denial.

Summary
By changing your oil at 5000km, you are subjecting your engine to oil that is almost always in the initial boil-off phase. It's contaminating and filling your engine with gunk. Contrary to popular and uninformed opinion, oil that is 10,000 km old is not likely to be harmful, and would certainly be less harmful than fresh oil.

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#4487598 - 08/13/17 05:19 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
double vanos Offline


Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 1868
Loc: 5600 feet elevation, Arizona
Wow! I wonder what the turbocharger turbine wheel would look like with 50k miles of PVC gasses being run through it would look like.
So basically it'd be better for me to boil my fresh motor oil for like 50-100 hours in a pot prior to putting it in my car. Good idea.
_________________________
Sabine Schmitz is the Queen of the 'Ring; Svetlana Kapanina is the Queen of the SKIES...

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#4487602 - 08/13/17 05:22 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: double vanos]
Speak2Mountain Offline


Registered: 04/07/17
Posts: 343
Loc: Mississippi
Yeah that one my takeaways, fresh oil sucks

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#4487619 - 08/13/17 05:38 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
SilverFusion2010 Offline


Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1572
Loc: Crawfordville FL
Originally Posted By: Speak2Mountain
and chime in about what you agree with and not.
thx........
I was in discussions with my friends in OZ who also run Direct Injection engines on the Mazdaspeed engines and they have reached this conclusion to avoid carbon buildup.

Do not change your oil every 3k or 5K. Go synthetic and change it every 10K.

Quote:
Why is it harmful to change the oil too frequently?

In a word; volatility. Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet valves and combustion chambers in gunk.

That black soot you see in your exhaust pipes, donít assume itís all caused by rich mixture. Excessive oil changing will contribute more soot.

The presence of oil in the intake also lowers the octane rating of your fuel leading to detonation.

The NOACK volatility test quantifies the extent of oil evaporation. The test standard - ASTM D5800 - 08 Standard Test Method for Evaporation Loss of Lubricating Oils by the Noack Method Ė also hints at another kind of danger associated with frequent oil changes where it states ďProcedure C, using the Selby-Noack apparatus, also permits collection of the volatile oil vapors for determination of their physical and chemical properties. Elemental analysis of the collected volatiles may be helpful in identifying components such as phosphorous, which has been linked to premature degradation of the emission system catalyst.Ē

A lot of phosphorous is lost in the initial boil-off phase of new oil and itís likely to be harming oxygen sensors and cats.

Engine manufacturers understand the problem and it would be easy for them to identify the type of damage done by over servicing and potentially result in a warranty claim denial.

Summary
By changing your oil at 5000km, you are subjecting your engine to oil that is almost always in the initial boil-off phase. It's contaminating and filling your engine with gunk. Contrary to popular and uninformed opinion, oil that is 10,000 km old is not likely to be harmful, and would certainly be less harmful than fresh oil.




I'll give it a plausible. 5000 km is about 3100 mi. My 2010 calls for oci of 7500 mi (12070km). And that is what I've always run. Of course I'm port injected so it doesn't matter for intake valves.

One point I've seen mentioned is that engines that use a catch can still get intake valve deposits which would seem to indicate that oil in the PCV system is only one of several factors for deposit formation.

The newest designs seem to all be going to dual port and DI systems which will solve most of the deposit issues for good.
_________________________
2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 AFE 0w-20

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#4487644 - 08/13/17 05:54 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Vuflanovsky Offline


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: California
I've seen something similar to this before...

First off, I wouldn't be using anything but synthetic oil to begin with in a DI engine...and secondly, if the manufacturer says to change at x miles based on driving habits, climate, etc., I tend to stick close to those recommendations. If you have issues like fuel dilution or have a DI car that is more subject to valve issues ( old VW/Audi is the obvious example ), you're probably going to do option B versus option A.

"Popular and uninformed" can be a euphemistic point-of-view statement as easily as doing the right thing. That "right thing" is bound to vary between applications and personal driving scenarios. Personally, I'd never run the OCI of my DI car 10K miles but I would and do run it 10K kms. I don't have soot in my tailpipe ( DI soot is typically more smoke-like anyway ) nor do I have valve issues.

Is a MazdaSpeed engine the same as an EcoBoost which is the same as Toyota or Hyundai/Kia design?? I think you might have to differentiate these applications, their differences, typical driving patterns, and numerous other things before blanket statements can come into play beyond stating that changing your oil too often might not be a good thing.

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#4487646 - 08/13/17 05:56 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
andyd Offline


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 7023
Loc: Marshfield , MA
So what you're saying is that you should break in the oil in a non DI car then swap it ? grin2
_________________________
'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2

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#4487654 - 08/13/17 06:01 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39469
Loc: 'Stralia
I get the gist for sure, it has an air of sense about it, but I wouldn't say that it's a cure-all.

Observation was that my TDi Nissan used to "miraculously" lose 1L at 7,000km in a 10,000km oil change...it happpened over a couple of weeks between checks, religiously.

There WAS a tremendous amount of oil passing through the intake...the non EGR port (that design had two separate manifold passsages) were just wet with greasy feeling oil.

The EGR passage was wet and sticky with "black paint".

There's evidence that the soot generation on GDI's is seriously greater in magnitude (and problem being PM2.5)...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28441489

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#4487674 - 08/13/17 06:27 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
double vanos Offline


Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 1868
Loc: 5600 feet elevation, Arizona
Shannow you're right about soot generation in DI engines! I just read that future BMW M models will have a steel driveshaft vs the carbon fiber that is currently used. BMW stated the change was in anticipation of laws requiring DPF filters in the near future. Beings as a DPF device gets powerful hot while in operation, I'm sure BMW was worried about roasting a CF driveshaft.
_________________________
Sabine Schmitz is the Queen of the 'Ring; Svetlana Kapanina is the Queen of the SKIES...

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#4487696 - 08/13/17 06:44 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
merconvvv Offline


Registered: 07/10/16
Posts: 682
Loc: il usa
Amsoil web site also had something about too frequent oil changes leading to deposits.
_________________________
1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0

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#4487700 - 08/13/17 06:48 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 4718
Loc: MTL, CANADA
Ughh. I dont buy it. Id rather change my oil too soon than not soon enough.
_________________________
2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
PP 0w20 & ST 4967


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#4487711 - 08/13/17 06:54 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
merconvvv Offline


Registered: 07/10/16
Posts: 682
Loc: il usa
are there reports showing noack at end of one hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc.
Should be simple enough to do.
When i drive long distance it can be 8 to 12 hours a day.
_________________________
1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0

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#4487732 - 08/13/17 07:18 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: merconvvv]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 3783
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Amsoil web site also had something about too frequent oil changes leading to deposits.


Since they are selling an oil advertised as long life that can go 15K-25K miles, I'm not surprised they back that theory.
_________________________
----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs

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#4487756 - 08/13/17 07:49 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Silk Online   content


Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 4466
Loc: New Zealand
Changing oil too early is not something that's liable to happen here, we use 15,000km intervals, and everything is over that when they come in.
_________________________
1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.

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#4487798 - 08/13/17 08:18 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: Speak2Mountain]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 10298
Loc: Illinois
I am not sure I buy the "oil is more volatile the first 5k kms."

At least in my Mazda, the consumption curve trends up as the oil spends more time in service.

I.E. first 1k miles(1600km) I might see 8oz leak or otherwise get consumed. By the time I get to 4k miles on the oil, it's disappearing 1qt/1k miles.

I change at 4k intervals because that seems (haven't done the math) to be a good compromise. I could go to 5k or 8k, but I'd be adding the 3.5L of oil needed for an oil change during that time anyway, so I might as well change it at 4k intervals, pop on a new filter and be done with it.

Then, I get some time at 8oz/1k miles consumption before I hit the 1qt/1k miles level of the consumption curve.

YMMV
_________________________
network down, IP packets delivered via UPS -BOFH

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#4487799 - 08/13/17 08:19 PM Re: WOULD you guys take the time to read this. [Re: double vanos]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: double vanos
Wow! I wonder what the turbocharger turbine wheel would look like with 50k miles of PVC gasses being run through it would look like.
So basically it'd be better for me to boil my fresh motor oil for like 50-100 hours in a pot prior to putting it in my car. Good idea.


Is this sarcasm?

Sometimes its difficult to tell without an emoticon.
_________________________
Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles

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