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Why new car dealers have a bad rep #4486852
08/12/17 07:43 PM
08/12/17 07:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline OP
fdcg27  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
It's really a bad rap.
I'll leave the used car end of the business out of the discussion, since each used car is an individual example, while all new cars of any given model are identical. New cars are fungible goods.
Now, most people don't get mad when they realize that they paid double for an item of clothing compared to what they see it on clearance for four or five months later. Most don't get angry when they see the price of a good imported cheese or a decent or very good wine.
Why do people get all bent out of shape when they buy a new car?
Probably because the clothing retailer won't negotiate price with any buyer nor will the high-end grocer haggle over the price of a fine cheese or wine.
With cars, everything is negotiable, from the selling price of the car to what's included in that price as well as the cash value given for any trade-in.
If a buyer walks in with no idea of the going low retail on a new car nor any clue as to a realistic wholesale value on his trade, then he is asking to get hosed.
It is not the job of the dealer to give every buyer a stellar deal, rather it's the job of a buyer to figure out what a good price is and to refuse to pay more.
I don't think that we can blame new car dealerships for trying to get every last dime out of a buyer. I think that a buyer needs to take some responsibility in educating himself as to what a good selling price is before walking in the door.
If buyers did their homework and knew what they should be paying, I think there'd be a lot less disgruntlement with dealerships, since paying too much is really the buyer's fault.
Caveat emptor!


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486868
08/12/17 07:56 PM
08/12/17 07:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,420
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,420
Virginia
Overall I agree with you on this about how the customer needs to educate themselves about the car market. I do think the business side of the transaction has some responsibility in not totally ripping off someone as well. Making money at a reasonable rate versus making a massive profit margin at the customer's expense is not right either.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
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Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486869
08/12/17 07:59 PM
08/12/17 07:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 745
texas
danez_yoda Offline
danez_yoda  Offline
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 745
texas
Its because new clothes or a piece of cheese is <$100 most of the time.

New car rips are thousands of dollars.

Everything from lusterizing sealant, rustproofing, $300 floormats, and. Oh you cant get that feature with adding all the other features you dont want. Sure you can, just order it that way.

Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486890
08/12/17 08:30 PM
08/12/17 08:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 423
Reunion Island
Superflan Offline
Superflan  Offline
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 423
Reunion Island
In my country, dealerships pays their sellers based on 3 mainly 3 things: the price finally paid, in which there's the sellers commission, a fixed fee by car model, and... a bonus at the end pf 6 months if a goal as been reached (selling 12 B model, etc)

I think that this economic model is partially responsible of the negotiable nature of cars, because the sellers are tempted to reduce their variable part almost to zero... to reach the goal and get the huge cash bonus


Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 5W40 C3, 245000 Km, running on WVO
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Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486891
08/12/17 08:36 PM
08/12/17 08:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,453
Gulf Coast, MS
3800Series Offline
3800Series  Offline
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,453
Gulf Coast, MS
General rule of thumb if they agree it's a bad deal. I kid but I think most people dislike it because they are forced to go to a dealership for a new vehicle. You just can't walk up to plant and ask for one off the line for a predetermined price everyone pays.

It gives more power to the seller and in general buyers are brought up believing they are in power. The roles switch in this equation and it leaves them feeling disadvantaged. New vehicles cost a lot so it's seen as an investment. If you buy the piece of clothing that goes on clearance it's over. You have already moved past that purchase.

With new vehicles you get reminded each time you pay your lease/loan. I think the fact that it drops but 1/4th - 1/5th instantly also plays a role. You're not promised a deal but you can most certainly get hosed.

Dealerships do a lot to nickel and dime you anyways. You argue over a price you are forced to play their game and once you get a price that your satisfied with they give you 10 mins to think about your new vehicle before they send a guy in for a second round most new buyers never expect. Which is the options it's just a game and many people don't enjoy it.

I'm not complaining don't take it as that I'm just speaking on the consumers side.

Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486899
08/12/17 08:45 PM
08/12/17 08:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,978
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,978
NY
I agree with most of what you wrote, however here's the rub. A car dealer wants to sell a car for as much as he can, that's business 101, it's a fact of life. It's up to the consumer to get the best deal. My problem is when they outright rob a customer by packing a deal with junk that a customer didn't approve, tossing papers at him/her hoping they sign them w/o looking. I just helped a friend who got screwed by a local Toyota dealer when he went in to buy his lease. He was offered what he thought was an attractive rate, and agreed to it. A few days later he looked papers over and there was an extended warranty in the tune of $3,500 which he didn't agree to or want packed nicely into the deal. He was shuffled papers and signed them. The man is 80 years old! It was bothering him since the math didn't work, so he called me. I saw they packed in a warranty. He called and complained and they point blank told him that he signed the papers. I helped him draft a letter, and we informed them the Nassau DA, and all the local news channels were getting a call if they didn't make it right. A few days later new paperwork was drafted and he got the right monthly payments. Not all people check, and not all people will fight the fight to get their money back.

Pushing to sell a car for as much as they can is their job, ripping off naive or elderly people is wrong. Not only do you have to know how to negotiate a deal, you have to know the little tricks that are used to rip you off and avoid them. Rant off!


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4486911
08/12/17 09:05 PM
08/12/17 09:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,657
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,657
Central Maryland
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
It's really a bad rap.
I'll leave the used car end of the business out of the discussion, since each used car is an individual example, while all new cars of any given model are identical. New cars are fungible goods.


Yes, used cars are different, and new cars are essentially fungible.

But new cars are not identical. One might last 500K and the one beside it could be a total lemon. Or vice-versa. The option list won't tell you which is which (unless it's a 3.8L Taurus or PowerStroke 6.0 or something like that).

Anyway, as has already been said, it's easier to rationalize away a $50 loss than a $5,000 loss.


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4487072
08/13/17 05:29 AM
08/13/17 05:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline OP
fdcg27  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
...and, we have the ultimate weapon at our disposal.
A casual walk to the door along with a comment to the effect that you'll check competing dealer X will often bring a swift collapse in selling price.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: danez_yoda] #4487074
08/13/17 05:36 AM
08/13/17 05:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,034
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline
skyactiv  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,034
The Midwest
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda
Its because new clothes or a piece of cheese is <$100 most of the time.

New car rips are thousands of dollars.

Everything from lusterizing sealant, rustproofing, $300 floormats, and. Oh you cant get that feature with adding all the other features you dont want. Sure you can, just order it that way.


Most manufactures went to packages long ago. As an example, the Jeep Wrangler has 13 different versions and you cant order the heavy duty suspension to the base model.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Wanted: 2019 Ford Ranger
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4487091
08/13/17 06:17 AM
08/13/17 06:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,030
New England
madRiver Offline
madRiver  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,030
New England
1) a dealer tries to extract the most amount of money/take advantage at every aspect and opportunity (loans, price, fees, insurances, warranty) within a purchase.
2) dealers all lie or extend truth to make sale
3) the sales staff is completely fake in being nice to you. The only reason for that is to make you more likely to purchase
4) dealer sales staff is the worst kind of salemen possibly IMHO the uneducated sort. It feels similar to talking to someone at cell phone kiosk at the mall

Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4487114
08/13/17 06:47 AM
08/13/17 06:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,941
Texas
Bud Offline
Bud  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,941
Texas
You have the ultimate weapon at the dealership. Your feet. Walk out the door if you are not satisfied. Dealerships are in business to make money, and no matter how good of a deal you brag to your friends about, they still made money off of you if you buy from them.


2016 Honda Pilot EX-L with NAVI.....Mobil 1 0w20 AFE and Honda OEM Filter
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: Bud] #4487119
08/13/17 06:56 AM
08/13/17 06:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline OP
fdcg27  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
Originally Posted By: Bud
You have the ultimate weapon at the dealership. Your feet. Walk out the door if you are not satisfied. Dealerships are in business to make money, and no matter how good of a deal you brag to your friends about, they still made money off of you if you buy from them.


Yep!
...or, they got rid of something with some weird combination of powertrain and option packages that's been sitting in inventory forever that happened to be exactly what you wanted.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4487133
08/13/17 07:34 AM
08/13/17 07:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,197
Sunny Florida
SteveSRT8 Offline
SteveSRT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,197
Sunny Florida
Amamzing how few here really understand car buying. First of all, all stealerships do not lie. But unfortunately most of them do, and will do almost anything to get you to sign on the dotted line. And secondly, all new car deals are cash. Every one. Either you pay or the bank pays.

Our local Dealer for servicing our trucks under warranty is a hopeless case. Deceptive sales practices and poor service department. We have only bought one truck there and are unlikely to even consider them in the future.

OTOH, our Chrysler dealer is amazingly easy to get along with. Superb buying experience and fantastic service. But in my nearly 50 years of experience purchasing many cars and trucks they are an exception...


"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: SteveSRT8] #4487690
08/13/17 05:41 PM
08/13/17 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline OP
fdcg27  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
So you think that it's okay to use a dealer you like for the purchase and then expect good service under warranty from a local who you didn't make a dime for?
Sorry, but that's an unrealistic expectation.
If you know anyone in the business personally, you can hear some hilarious stories about buyers lying, both in the purchase process and in seeking repairs under warranty resulting from either their own neglect or abuse.
Any service writer can tell you many amusing stories about customers either running new cars out of oil or running the FF until the engine seized and then expecting a new engine under warranty.
Some manufacturers will actually cover this as well.
The dishonesty is not limited to the dealers. I've never been dishonest with a dealer just as I never deal dishonestly with anyone else. I've in turn never had any dishonest practice from any car dealer.
People deal with you as you deal with them.
If I get a bad vibe from a dealership, I turn around and walk. If a sales guy follows me, I just tell him that I'm unemployed but need a new car. That backs them right off.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Why new car dealers have a bad rep [Re: fdcg27] #4487790
08/13/17 07:12 PM
08/13/17 07:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,535
Illinois
javacontour Offline
javacontour  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,535
Illinois
I wonder how much of it comes down to experience and expectations.

When I was 20 something, I'm sure I was taken advantage of. I think I all but threw a tantrum in a Mazda dealership. Today, some three decades later, I know more. I have different expectations. Some of them are from dealing with dealers (and teenagers) and some from experience.

I try to avoid the opportunities to stretch the truth or outright lie to me.

For example, I negotiate the out the door number. One number. I make it clear that is the number we are talking about.

Little room left to throw a curve in at the end of the deal.

I get my financing or my bank book from the wife pre-approved. If someone were to say I had to pay 18% interest on the 2018 Flux Capcitormobile, I'd know better.

If it's a used car and something is needed, like a second key fob and security key, I know to get a "We Owe" voucher.

I have no expectation that I'm going to be better than those who negotiate deals every day. Instead, I decide to control what I can control. If I like the deal, I buy and enjoy the car and stop looking at the deals others claim to get. If I don't like the deal, I don't buy.

It really is that simple.

But then, I guess I have one other advantage. I have 5 cars in the home fleet. I seldom feel the urgency that I have to have a car today.

I can be more picky and not take the first deal that gets me a mediocre car at a bad price.


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