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#4484842 - 08/10/17 02:58 PM Too thin? How about too thick?
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
I was looking for something else, but came across this from Parker Kittiwake. This is not news to me, but has a lot of interesting stuff in one spot. What is really pertinent to this board is on page 7 in Tables 1 and 2. They have the results of too thin and too thick of a velocity, and the causes of this. And they are correct.
http://www.kittiwake.com/sites/default/files/2%20-%20Viscosity%20Dec12_0.pdf

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#4484900 - 08/10/17 04:35 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39850
Loc: 'Stralia
Been raised before (by the proponent of the BQI Index), but the rebuttal is that's an advertisement for some equipment in an industrial/hydraulic environment.

Not automotive engine related...

But going down the table on the too thick side...

Excessive heat generation resulting in sludge - unlikely in your engine, and as I've demonstrated RPM is more significant.

Gaseous cavitation due to lack of flow to pumps and bearings...key is the suction side of the pump...pick an oil with the correct MRV (W rating) for your ambient and it won't happen...period.

Lubrication starvation...see last point...if it hasn't starved on TGMO at freezing, it won't starve on SAE30 either.

Oil whip (are you familiar with it ???)...well anyways, that's typically an industrial issue, would NEVER happen in an IC engine due to the reciprocating nature of the motions...it's large, high speed, unidirectionally loaded bearing where with typically light loads for their surface area...I spent a couple of years fighting it on a 700MW generator.

Excessive energy Consumption - define excessive, in an IC context between HTHS of 3 versus 2.6 ? CAFE lets the OEMS have 1/2% on 0W20.

Poor air detrainment - seriously, there's a material difference between 8 and 12cst in the sump ? If you are running a mill on ISO320, at 60 degrees, then yes, there's a difference...not in your sump.

Poor cold start pumpability - that's what we have "W" ratings for. Industrially, we don't HAVE "W" ratings on our industrial and hydraulic oils...for a car, pick the right W...I've used 25W70 down to 20F, pumps and gets to the top end just fine.

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#4484912 - 08/10/17 04:53 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: Shannow]
AirgunSavant Offline


Registered: 07/22/15
Posts: 3772
Loc: MD
I'm glad you resolved this Shannow before I had to get involved. smile

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#4484936 - 08/10/17 05:21 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: Shannow]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Been raised before (by the proponent of the BQI Index), but the rebuttal is that's an advertisement for some equipment in an industrial/hydraulic environment.

Not automotive engine related...

But going down the table on the too thick side...

Excessive heat generation resulting in sludge - unlikely in your engine, and as I've demonstrated RPM is more significant.

Gaseous cavitation due to lack of flow to pumps and bearings...key is the suction side of the pump...pick an oil with the correct MRV (W rating) for your ambient and it won't happen...period.

Lubrication starvation...see last point...if it hasn't starved on TGMO at freezing, it won't starve on SAE30 either.

Oil whip (are you familiar with it ???)...well anyways, that's typically an industrial issue, would NEVER happen in an IC engine due to the reciprocating nature of the motions...it's large, high speed, unidirectionally loaded bearing where with typically light loads for their surface area...I spent a couple of years fighting it on a 700MW generator.

Excessive energy Consumption - define excessive, in an IC context between HTHS of 3 versus 2.6 ? CAFE lets the OEMS have 1/2% on 0W20.

Poor air detrainment - seriously, there's a material difference between 8 and 12cst in the sump ? If you are running a mill on ISO320, at 60 degrees, then yes, there's a difference...not in your sump.

Poor cold start pumpability - that's what we have "W" ratings for. Industrially, we don't HAVE "W" ratings on our industrial and hydraulic oils...for a car, pick the right W...I've used 25W70 down to 20F, pumps and gets to the top end just fine.
And
other than you posting it, you get your information where? This does, in fact refer also to reciprocating engines, among others. And you know more than Parker Hannefin?


Edited by wwillson (08/10/17 08:38 PM)
Edit Reason: remove language

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#4484937 - 08/10/17 05:26 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
userfriendly Offline


Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2630
Loc: LaFinDuMonde
Lol. I know where I pull most of the information I post from.

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#4484939 - 08/10/17 05:28 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39850
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
And other than you posting it, you get your information where? This does, in fact refer also to reciprocating engines, among others. And you know more than Parker Hannefin? Which is why posted it, instead of just talking out my [censored], like some some blog


BeMech (hons).
28 years in the power industry, working on industrial lubrication, turbines, pumps, mills and presses, hydraulics and turbine bypass systems. Commissioning engineer for an MDF factory.

I've been around.

As to the last point that you make in bold, mindlessly posting advertorials is not disseminating knowledge...it's showing your ignorance, and a "want to believe" attitude.

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#4484945 - 08/10/17 05:37 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: Shannow]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
And other than you posting it, you get your information where? This does, in fact refer also to reciprocating engines, among others. And you know more than Parker Hannefin? Which is why posted it, instead of just talking out my [censored], like some some blog


BeMech (hons).
28 years in the power industry, working on industrial lubrication, turbines, pumps, mills and presses, hydraulics and turbine bypass systems. Commissioning engineer for an MDF factory.

I've been around.

As to the last point that you make in bold, mindlessly posting advertorials is not disseminating knowledge...it's showing your ignorance, and a "want to believe" attitude.

32 years in the power industry working in industrial lubrication, turbines, pumps, mills and presses, hydraulics and cogeneration plants, and finally, diesel locomotives. A commissioning engineer on three U.S. Navy gas turbine combat ships. Personally tested tens of thousands of lube oil samples, of all different persuasions, and responsible for the results of many more. I'll take the knowledge of a reputable company any time. Any thing else?

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#4484961 - 08/10/17 05:55 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39850
Loc: 'Stralia
OK then, from your experience, counter each of my statements....

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#4484967 - 08/10/17 05:58 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5512
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Well, I guess I get to throw my $0.02 in here. They start with a spherical bearing failure. The last time I saw one was in a retrofit for a Norton 850 motorcycle. Prior to that it was in a 5-speed transmission for an over the road truck making more HP than the tranny was rated for. Very few OEM automotive engines employ roller bearings, especially spherical ones ...

The chart at the bottom of pg 7 shows actual breakdown of oil for the thinnies. The thickies need an external stimulus mostly like water or anti-freze. They are therefor talking about being way out of grade. IE: trying to run grease like materials through an oil pump. OK, at that thick, I'll buy some of their arguments ...

But, it all comes down to bearing speed and clearances. 0.002~3 for a rod bearing and you can run 20~40 grade easily at nominal operating speeds and temps. At elevated temps, you'll need to be more toward the 40 side due to viscosity loss from heat. At elevated speeds you want sufficient film strength, but no excess viscosity or you will generate fluid friction and it will drive the temps even higher.

So, as an example - many small aero engines (under 250 HP) run 20W-50 because their crankshaft speeds rarely exceed 2,800 RPM due to prop issues. So little speed and thicker oil. OTOH, a dual overhead cam Honda bike engine may spend all day 4,000 rpm with blasts up to 11,000. 30 grade is about max for that motor unless in extreme heat (desert) where the heat alone bring the 40 down to a lower viscosity.

You have to pick your oil based on the parameters present in the machine. Not some chart or a general oil board laugh
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4484994 - 08/10/17 06:28 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: Shannow]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK then, from your experience, counter each of my statements....

This is a board for laymen changing thier own car oil. I put that pdf up for general knowledge. I am not going to get into a technical discussion on the internet.
Something that I have learned over time, and most wise people do learn, is that when you are younger, you think you know everything. As you get older, you realize there are always things you don't know, and continue to learn.

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#4485018 - 08/10/17 06:46 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39850
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK then, from your experience, counter each of my statements....

This is a board for laymen changing thier own car oil. I put that pdf up for general knowledge. I am not going to get into a technical discussion on the internet.
Something that I have learned over time, and most wise people do learn, is that when you are younger, you think you know everything. As you get older, you realize there are always things you don't know, and continue to learn.


And I pointed out that the statements that were made in the advertisement for their products weren't applicable to the subject "Passenger Car Motor Oil", in the manner that you were suggesting it was (directing them to Page 7, specifically the thicker commentary)...i.e. we have W ratings, an IC engine will never see shaft whip, deaeration difference between 8 and 12cst is a non event, and if the W rating is correct, there CAN NOT BE starvation.

And at that, you called me (not nice) names, and my statements false.

The Parker advertorial has nil to do with BITOGers changing their own oil...thanks

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#4485109 - 08/10/17 08:19 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 18157
Loc: Dallas,Tx USA
So is this cat Parker telling us to use thin oil or thick oil? ???
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum 0W20



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#4485120 - 08/10/17 08:31 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: bigj_16]
PeterPolyol Offline


Registered: 03/06/16
Posts: 1345
Loc: toronto
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not going to get into a technical discussion on the internet.


C'mon man, face your fears

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#4485135 - 08/10/17 08:41 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: PeterPolyol]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not going to get into a technical discussion on the internet.


C'mon man, face your fears


Hahahaha!

Shannow is an experienced and educated engineer. He is *NOT* wet behind the ears.

bigj_16, if you feel you are on equal footing, the least you could do is act professionally and provide educated responses (instead of insults).

The Parker article is indeed informative, for WHAT IT IS. So, it's indeed geared towards industrial applications, I'll grant you that. Little of it is *directly* applicable to the environment inside and internal combustion engine, but it has merit for it's intended audience and applications.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4485151 - 08/10/17 08:58 PM Re: Too thin? How about too thick? [Re: Linctex]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not going to get into a technical discussion on the internet.


C'mon man, face your fears

The Parker article is indeed informative, for WHAT IT IS. So, it's indeed geared towards industrial applications, I'll grant you that. Little of it is *directly* applicable to the environment inside and internal combustion engine, but it has merit for it's intended audience and applications.

Which is exactly why I posted it. The "professional" thing to do, would have been to glean applicable data from it, instead of declaring it useless.
By the way, I do not feel anything about my experience. It is what it is. I have been doing this stuff for a long time. However, there is always something I don't know, and always someone who knows more. My guess is that this applies to Mr. Shannow, also. Take the pdf for what it is, and feel free to learn.


Edited by bigj_16 (08/10/17 09:04 PM)

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