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Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: Kestas] #4484225
08/10/17 12:12 AM
08/10/17 12:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
CycleGremlin Offline OP
CycleGremlin  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
Originally Posted By: Kestas

Not all true. Ceramic balls have less deformation at the point of contact, resulting in less drag and less heat generated.


True - while all is new. My thinking is that a lot higher hardness and lack of elasticity is more likely to cause (metal) race pitting sooner. Fully ceramic ones (both races and balls) make somewhat more sense IMO, though I don't believe they would provide any (stop watch) measurable advantage - except if one believes they make them faster - that does help and work.

Originally Posted By: Kestas

They're popular for racing applications.


Pros have used patents far from optimal - since sponsors need to market and sell stuff. People often buy what pro racers use believing it is the best - since the pros use it.

Originally Posted By: Kestas

I've never heard of titanium being used for raceways... not even in aircraft application. What's the engineering behind that?


+1
But I'm taking the poster's word for it - he's using it, guess he knows what it is. Didn't do much research on "exotic" cartridge bearings.

Last edited by CycleGremlin; 08/10/17 12:12 AM.
Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4484326
08/10/17 06:50 AM
08/10/17 06:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
Cycle gremlin, your "thinking" is contrary to all data that is commonly known among bearing designers. Raceways are redesigned to accommodate ceramic balls so that raceway loading is within acceptable design parameters so spalling won't be an issue.

Making ceramic raceways has its own challenges, which make it impractical to manufacture and install.

Racers don't use ceramic rollers because of advertising pressure. They use it because it works. They see the test data, which time and again prove ceramic rollers perform better on the track. Plus they are willing to pay the premium for this performance.

By the way, I don't take people's word for it when it comes to bearings. I rely on data from testing.

I think you need to study a bit more in depth about bearing design, ncluding ceramic rollers, and learn about bearing failure analysis to understand all the different reasons for raceway spalling.

Also, when bearing manufacturers perform kerb crash testing, they include the tire in the assembly. The test is chiefly to look at brinelling of the raceway. Grease is not a variable in this test; it will not affect results.

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: Kestas] #4484365
08/10/17 07:37 AM
08/10/17 07:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
CycleGremlin Offline OP
CycleGremlin  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Cycle gremlin, your "thinking" is contrary to all data that is commonly known among bearing designers. Raceways are redesigned to accommodate ceramic balls so that raceway loading is within acceptable design parameters so spalling won't be an issue.

Making ceramic raceways has its own challenges, which make it impractical to manufacture and install.

Racers don't use ceramic rollers because of advertising pressure. They use it because it works. They see the test data, which time and again prove ceramic rollers perform better on the track. Plus they are willing to pay the premium for this performance.

By the way, I don't take people's word for it when it comes to bearings. I rely on data from testing.

I think you need to study a bit more in depth about bearing design, ncluding ceramic rollers, and learn about bearing failure analysis to understand all the different reasons for raceway spalling.

Also, when bearing manufacturers perform kerb crash testing, they include the tire in the assembly. The test is chiefly to look at brinelling of the raceway. Grease is not a variable in this test; it will not affect results.



For shock tests - do you think I should just exclude the shock tests?
If not - without a tyre, with a reduced impact, wouldn't results be similar? The tyre would probably reduce the maximal impact and spread the impact force over a slightly longer time period, but I don't think that would change the results - what do you think?

Do you have any data and educational links I could use?

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4484379
08/10/17 07:59 AM
08/10/17 07:59 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,520
Indiana
Phishin Offline
Phishin  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,520
Indiana
Originally Posted By: CycleGremlin

But I'm taking the poster's word for it - he's using it, guess he knows what it is. Didn't do much research on "exotic" cartridge bearings.


I'm sorry. I misspoke. The races are NOT titanium. They are 52100 steel. My mistake.


2018 Chevy Silerado 3500HD 6.0L Gas: RLI 10w30
2010 Accord-LX K24: MaxLife 5w30 + Torco MPZ
2014 CR-V LX K24: M1 0w30
Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4484409
08/10/17 08:34 AM
08/10/17 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
I think you should exclude the kerb crash test. This test is used to test the raceways for dent resistance. As I said, grease is not a variable in this test. You could run it without grease and have the same results. The tire is included because this is how the test was developed. The test has very specific parameters (i.e., drop height, load, angle) that I am mot intimately familiar with.

There are books in the library of educational institutions that cover bearing design and theory. Common bearing failure modes can be found on the internet.

Your water and dirt tests have merit.

I wouldn't measure wear by weighing the bearings. It's not practical and it won't yield anything useful. Wear is typically assessed by examination of the raceways. It's not really quantified.

Another test that may be useful is a raceway fretting test. This tests the effectiveness of grease during micromotion of raceways, such as the steer tube bearings. Different greases have markedly different results with this test. I believe there already is a standardized test for this in the industry.

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: Kestas] #4484446
08/10/17 09:11 AM
08/10/17 09:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
CycleGremlin Offline OP
CycleGremlin  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I think you should exclude the kerb crash test. This test is used to test the raceways for dent resistance. As I said, grease is not a variable in this test. You could run it without grease and have the same results. The tire is included because this is how the test was developed. The test has very specific parameters (i.e., drop height, load, angle) that I am mot intimately familiar with.

There are books in the library of educational institutions that cover bearing design and theory. Common bearing failure modes can be found on the internet.

Your water and dirt tests have merit.

I wouldn't measure wear by weighing the bearings. It's not practical and it won't yield anything useful. Wear is typically assessed by examination of the raceways. It's not really quantified.

Another test that may be useful is a raceway fretting test. This tests the effectiveness of grease during micromotion of raceways, such as the steer tube bearings. Different greases have markedly different results with this test. I believe there already is a standardized test for this in the industry.


Visual inspection definitely - for signs of wear and/or pitting, along with photos. Weighing on a precise scale will be an addition, to (double) check for wear. Since the bearings I plan on using are cartridge ones, not practical for disassembling, weighing will show any worn off material. Weighing before test (after degreasing and cleaning), then adding grease, testing and weighing afterwards.

For fretting test - yes, my plan so far doesn't include the test - and yes, it's important for steerer bearings. Maybe on another occasion. I'll see how this goes. Next week I'm going to talk to the lab guys and see what exactly we can do, how much time will be available.

As for bearing construction and wear - I've read quite a bit so far, but very little data on steel vs ceramics.
In my experience - dirt intrusion and grease depletion is what kills most bike bearings. Ceramics are practically immune to grease depletion (no rusting, no welding, need very little lube to run smooth), but after a few rides and dirt intrusion - I doubt they differ much from steel ones. Using simple dust seals to prevent dirt intrusion does increase drag. On top of that, I'm still looking for a test of how faster a bike rolls with ceramic bearings, especially after a few rides in the rain.

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: ArcticDriver] #4484653
08/10/17 12:20 PM
08/10/17 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,010
PV Az
AZjeff Offline
AZjeff  Offline
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,010
PV Az
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

Its true that many cyclists spend $5K on bicycles and costumes today as a form of status; however, there are still a few of us who ride older bicycles...gasp...and practice a strong economy.

We are the ones not wearing spandex outfits into the local SBUX Forcing all the customers to see our 60-year-old glutes.

And I can think of a few old bike shop owners who would prefer to save overhead costs by purchasing a quality grease at half the price.

Cheers



Not sure where all this is coming from old boy? At least I stayed on topic. Let's see, 2 of the bikes I ride are a '96 and an '00, but I did upgrade from an '07 to a '16 last year as the '07 needed obsolete parts. Sorry. As for old guy's butts in spandex, since I don't frequent SBUX ever that's not a big problem for me. And having raced both road and mountain bikes in younger days and understand the need for the tights maybe I'm more tolerant of them. Maybe get your SBUX latte to go?

And it sounds like the OPs stated purpose is to find out if low cost grease is as good as expensive grease so the old bike shop owners aren't going to get their quality grease at half price. It seems plausible that cone/cup bearings will last forever in bikes if maintained so the need for special grease could be unnecessary. IF MAINTAINED is the thing right? If a quality grease will stay in the bearing and not wash out under harsh use and only need repacking once a year instead of twice a year does that offset the actual cost of the grease? As stated earlier labor far outweighs cost of grease.


86 Samurai 1.3 leftovers
14 RAV4 2.5 5W-20 PP
16 Silverado 1500 4.3, DI, AFM 5W-30 PP

The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with someone else's life. - Frank Zappa

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CR94] #4484881
08/10/17 04:01 PM
08/10/17 04:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,241
California
nthach Offline
nthach  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,241
California
Originally Posted By: CR94


1. Although absolute load on bicycle wheel bearings is obviously a lot less than that of a small car, EP qualities of the grease do matter, because specific loading (stress within the much smaller bearing races) is often higher. That's one reason why life of bike bearings is generally shorter.


3. Chain tension can add greatly to overall load on right rear wheel bearings, especially when climbing hills. Do the vector math, using reasonable assumptions, and you'll see. On steep hills, it can exceed load due weight of rider+bike.

4. To better simulate riding in rain, you need to subject your bearing to periods of continuous spray, not just dump mixture over them intermittently. The life of bike bearings tends to be highly dependent on the water resistance qualities of the grease.



That's one reason why I'm very particular about grease for my bikes - a lot of bike shops use Park PolyLube 1000, a polyurea-based grease for pure convenience as they can get it from QBP and it's sold as a "bike-specific" grease. I've seen Park PolyLube break down during use - and typically polyurea greases aren't compatible with any other greases. Shimano uses calcium-based grease which naturally has high water wash resistance.

As for bearing load, Shimano did switch over to the freehub system in the 1980s - rear axles were getting bent as soon as bikes had more gears in the back. There's 3 sets of bearings in their system - all cup and cone and one of them is in the freehub body. SRAM is pushing their XD driver system on mountain bikes. But outside of Shimano, very few hubs use angular contact bearings which will spread load evenly instead of concentrating it at one spot, could that be why some bearings fail quicker than others?

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: nthach] #4485534
08/11/17 09:43 AM
08/11/17 09:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,556
The Motor City
Originally Posted By: nthach
... very few hubs use angular contact bearings which will spread load evenly instead of concentrating it at one spot, could that be why some bearings fail quicker than others?

I don't understand this question.

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: Kestas] #4485646
08/11/17 11:46 AM
08/11/17 11:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,241
California
nthach Offline
nthach  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,241
California
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: nthach
... very few hubs use angular contact bearings which will spread load evenly instead of concentrating it at one spot, could that be why some bearings fail quicker than others?

I don't understand this question.

What I meant to say in a bicycle application which sees both axial and radial forces like wheels, is a angular contact bearing better than a conventional deep groove bearing due to that load seems to be spread out more evenly with an angular bearing?

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: nthach] #4485670
08/11/17 12:07 PM
08/11/17 12:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
CycleGremlin Offline OP
CycleGremlin  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: nthach
... very few hubs use angular contact bearings which will spread load evenly instead of concentrating it at one spot, could that be why some bearings fail quicker than others?

I don't understand this question.

What I meant to say in a bicycle application which sees both axial and radial forces like wheels, is a angular contact bearing better than a conventional deep groove bearing due to that load seems to be spread out more evenly with an angular bearing?


Angular contact bearings are better for the application - they do handle lateral loads better.

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4485947
08/11/17 05:31 PM
08/11/17 05:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,465
Western S.C. since 1996
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,465
Western S.C. since 1996
Originally Posted By: CycleGremlin
... Angular contact bearings are better for the application - they do handle lateral loads better.
True, but lateral or axial loading of bike bearings is generally much smaller than the radial loads, except in headsets---and crashes.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 93K
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1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
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Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CR94] #4486220
08/12/17 12:18 AM
08/12/17 12:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
CycleGremlin Offline OP
CycleGremlin  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
Serbia
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: CycleGremlin
... Angular contact bearings are better for the application - they do handle lateral loads better.
True, but lateral or axial loading of bike bearings is generally much smaller than the radial loads, except in headsets---and crashes.


Which is why radial bearings (most modern cartridge ones are made as such) don't create much problems after a short time. Still, when riding standing (pedalling up hill, or sprinting), there are lateral loads as well. Also, when cornering without leaning the body with the bike (off road style, with the body more upright), there are lateral loads present.

Living car free for the past 10+ years (using motorcycle for sports, but not for transport), I've been riding all year long (summer heat, as well as snow and melted, salty snow). Doing about 5000+ km per year. Servicing cup and cone hubs every spring and autumn, they last until a bike gets stolen. No measurable wear on the bearings. No serviceable radial bearings for comparison unfortunately. One bike was serviced once a year and no wear for 3 years (then it got stolen), but that's not a very long time. I do twice a year service just for a piece of mind (mostly looking for dirt intrusion, or grease washout, but once I open the hubs - see no point in not cleaning and re-lubing).

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4492563
08/19/17 07:36 AM
08/19/17 07:36 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 121
the Netherlands
miro Offline
miro  Offline
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 121
the Netherlands
Hello and welcome.
I have few questions
1. I did not get what is the purpose of this test. What do you want to proof with it?
2. What is the accuracy of weight measurements? - e.g. wear of 10um at outer shell weights 0.0078mg - milligrams

Re: Bicycle bearing grease lab test help [Re: CycleGremlin] #4663241
02/11/18 06:55 PM
02/11/18 06:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 5
Pigseye
johnnyspaghetti Offline
johnnyspaghetti  Offline
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Posts: 5
Pigseye
Pre 1970's Raleigh 3 speed English bicycles "The all steel bicycle" were built to last 100 years. I have been picking these out of the trash or buying very cheap for years and refurbishing them. They usually have sat in a garage or basement for 20-30 years. It takes very little to get them rolling as new again without replacing any parts other than tires & brake pads generally. I just use a cheap light grease wheelhub, BB,& headset. Sturmey Archer Internal gear hubs are designed to use a very light oil such as Dextron or even lighter. these IGH hubs are design to run on the oil alone but to grease bearing sets lasts for years and the oil mess is then controlled you need very little light oil in the hub.
When I disassemble the bearing the grease is usually petrified on parts. These Raleigh built bikes are aged 1958-59-60-61-63-64-68-69-70-71 and a 1985 made in Asia. Late 70's Raleighs are Asian made. They all work perfect & I ride 2 of them and they never break and need very little care than a squirt of dextron on the chain once in a while. My daily rider is outside 24/7 I ride most every day It is minus 1 dergree F this morning.

Last edited by johnnyspaghetti; 02/11/18 07:01 PM.
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