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#4482366 - 08/08/17 03:14 AM South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
which spin, spin, spin....

Quote:
PREMIER Jay Weatherill’s plan to turn temporary diesel generators into a permanent gas-fired power station is a “clever technical solution” to an energy crisis SA should never have had to face, a leading energy expert says.

Mr Weatherill has announced plans to lease, and possibly later buy, nine new turbines which can run off either diesel or gas, and provide the state up to 276MW of energy in times of emergency.

The hybrid diesel-gas generators, will be housed at Holden’s Elizabeth factory after it closes and alongside the mothballed Adelaide desal plant.


Hybrid ?

Only a spin doctor could come up with that name for a tick a box option (oil, gas, or dual fuel) since GE started selling these things 50 years ago...

Fittingly housed next to the mothballed desalination plant...in a closed down Holden Factory.

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#4482368 - 08/08/17 03:32 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
PimTac Online   content


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4345
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Hybrid sounds so tech advanced compared to dual fuel or flex fuel. I agree that it doesn't fit here. I'm surprised it's not solar or wind down there. The greenies might stomp their feet on these diesel- gas generators.
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#4482374 - 08/08/17 04:12 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
4WD Online   confused


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6439
Loc: Texas
Probably saw my first duel fuel 30 years ago - but wait - Did it have waste heat recovery ? - that's a really deep shade of green grin2

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#4482376 - 08/08/17 04:28 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: PimTac]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Hybrid sounds so tech advanced compared to dual fuel or flex fuel. I agree that it doesn't fit here. I'm surprised it's not solar or wind down there. The greenies might stomp their feet on these diesel- gas generators.


Nah, they love it...

http://reneweconomy.com.au/ge-wins-south-australia-tender-for-back-up-generators-19258/

again with the spin, as Torrens Island is gas thermal, so at least the B station will also be in the mid 30s efficiency wise...used to be good fishing there when I was a kid.

Gas prices of $10/GJ, and heat rates of 10.3GJ/MWh make for $103/MWh (10.3c/Kwh) for these new machines...diesel is likely to be $16/GJ...16c/Kwh.

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#4482460 - 08/08/17 08:13 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 7480
Loc: S California
I worked at Solar Turbines in San Diego in the 70's and almost all our turbine engines were dual fuel. You could switch between fuels like diesel and natural gas at full load and someone outside the enclosure could not hear the change over. This was in the days of 24 volt logic circuits and very few solid state electronics. Dual fuel was common and easy to manage then. And all this was before cell phones. People actually walked around disconnected from each other. Imagine life like that.

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#4482500 - 08/08/17 08:52 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 12345
Loc: The Motor City
So it appears that "hybrid" is the new with-it term to toss around.

I remember when automakers started putting turbos on cars back in the 80s, in response to the fuel crisis. Shortly afterward, the word "turbo" was being thrown around everywhere. Even a sunglass manufacturer marketed a "turbo" line.

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#4482511 - 08/08/17 09:06 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I clicked on this thread fully expecting to see some sort of GT/battery joint venture with Tesla or similar. Imagine my surprise! LOL!
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#4482530 - 08/08/17 09:41 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41805
Loc: New Jersey
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.

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#4482637 - 08/08/17 11:39 AM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


They might be talking about the Tesla agreement, which I believe is a separate project and not part of this facility. Hopefully Shannow can correct me if I'm wrong on that point.
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#4482865 - 08/08/17 03:57 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


Nope not sure where you drew that conclusion from...the battery is a completely different boondoggle...it's not integrated with the generators.

The hybrid that they are claiming is simply the dual fuel, and the "clever" part of being able to run them on diesel for a few years then install them somewhere with gas and (hopefully CCGT them). "without having to buy two sets of equipment"...that's spn.

On diesel, less GHG than the Northern coal plant that closed last year (spin), and on Gas less than Torrens Island (spin, and only true if they CCGT them at that point)

The battery is some loss leader deal done with Musk for undisclosed Ts and Cs, "get it in 100 days or get it free", which rumour has it is grossly oversized for it's price due to the range of ambient temps isn South Oz not playing well with it's chemistry.

edit...the battery is 100MW, 130MWh, about half hour's storage if the GTs are hooked to it.


Edited by Shannow (08/08/17 04:05 PM)

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#4482867 - 08/08/17 04:03 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Just interested in the hybrid battery system that you are suggesting (which it isn't).

What's the round trip efficiency of 37.5% generator -> battery -> inverter 50Hz ???

Looking at the cost of supply, 16c/Kw to generate, 25c/KW (levelised cost of storage per lazard papers) for the MW that you get out, 40c/kWh before youget it off the site.

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#4482905 - 08/08/17 05:00 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41805
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


Nope not sure where you drew that conclusion from...the battery is a completely different boondoggle...it's not integrated with the generators.

The hybrid that they are claiming is simply the dual fuel, and the "clever" part of being able to run them on diesel for a few years then install them somewhere with gas and (hopefully CCGT them). "without having to buy two sets of equipment"...that's spn.

On diesel, less GHG than the Northern coal plant that closed last year (spin), and on Gas less than Torrens Island (spin, and only true if they CCGT them at that point)

The battery is some loss leader deal done with Musk for undisclosed Ts and Cs, "get it in 100 days or get it free", which rumour has it is grossly oversized for it's price due to the range of ambient temps isn South Oz not playing well with it's chemistry.

edit...the battery is 100MW, 130MWh, about half hour's storage if the GTs are hooked to it.


As mentioned, the first link needs subscription, the second link mentioned batteries. Hybridization of GTGs with energy storage is viable...

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#4482910 - 08/08/17 05:03 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41805
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Just interested in the hybrid battery system that you are suggesting (which it isn't).

What's the round trip efficiency of 37.5% generator -> battery -> inverter 50Hz ???

Looking at the cost of supply, 16c/Kw to generate, 25c/KW (levelised cost of storage per lazard papers) for the MW that you get out, 40c/kWh before youget it off the site.


Based upon power to energy ratios, battery efficiencies can be in the 90%+ range. Good converters >95%. Keep the cycles shallow and the battery can last a long time.

Not sure if the economics, but I'm guessing these systems aren't used that much. Have some storage for ridethrough, and it could be ok.

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#4482954 - 08/08/17 06:04 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As mentioned, the first link needs subscription, the second link mentioned batteries. Hybridization of GTGs with energy storage is viable...


But that's NOT what they are doing...they are separate boondoggles.

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#4482978 - 08/08/17 06:26 PM Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Red marker is the location of the battery (near a wind farm under development.

Adelaide (well 10 miles north) is the locations of the GTs.

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