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South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines #4482366
08/08/17 03:14 AM
08/08/17 03:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
which spin, spin, spin....

Quote:
PREMIER Jay Weatherill’s plan to turn temporary diesel generators into a permanent gas-fired power station is a “clever technical solution” to an energy crisis SA should never have had to face, a leading energy expert says.

Mr Weatherill has announced plans to lease, and possibly later buy, nine new turbines which can run off either diesel or gas, and provide the state up to 276MW of energy in times of emergency.

The hybrid diesel-gas generators, will be housed at Holden’s Elizabeth factory after it closes and alongside the mothballed Adelaide desal plant.


Hybrid ?

Only a spin doctor could come up with that name for a tick a box option (oil, gas, or dual fuel) since GE started selling these things 50 years ago...

Fittingly housed next to the mothballed desalination plant...in a closed down Holden Factory.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482368
08/08/17 03:32 AM
08/08/17 03:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
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...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

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...
Hybrid sounds so tech advanced compared to dual fuel or flex fuel. I agree that it doesn't fit here. I'm surprised it's not solar or wind down there. The greenies might stomp their feet on these diesel- gas generators.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482374
08/08/17 04:12 AM
08/08/17 04:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,174
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

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Texas
Probably saw my first duel fuel 30 years ago - but wait - Did it have waste heat recovery ? - that's a really deep shade of green grin2

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: PimTac] #4482376
08/08/17 04:28 AM
08/08/17 04:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Hybrid sounds so tech advanced compared to dual fuel or flex fuel. I agree that it doesn't fit here. I'm surprised it's not solar or wind down there. The greenies might stomp their feet on these diesel- gas generators.


Nah, they love it...

http://reneweconomy.com.au/ge-wins-south-australia-tender-for-back-up-generators-19258/

again with the spin, as Torrens Island is gas thermal, so at least the B station will also be in the mid 30s efficiency wise...used to be good fishing there when I was a kid.

Gas prices of $10/GJ, and heat rates of 10.3GJ/MWh make for $103/MWh (10.3c/Kwh) for these new machines...diesel is likely to be $16/GJ...16c/Kwh.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482460
08/08/17 08:13 AM
08/08/17 08:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline
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I worked at Solar Turbines in San Diego in the 70's and almost all our turbine engines were dual fuel. You could switch between fuels like diesel and natural gas at full load and someone outside the enclosure could not hear the change over. This was in the days of 24 volt logic circuits and very few solid state electronics. Dual fuel was common and easy to manage then. And all this was before cell phones. People actually walked around disconnected from each other. Imagine life like that.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482500
08/08/17 08:52 AM
08/08/17 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,876
The Motor City
Kestas Online content
Global Moderator
Kestas  Online Content
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The Motor City
So it appears that "hybrid" is the new with-it term to toss around.

I remember when automakers started putting turbos on cars back in the 80s, in response to the fuel crisis. Shortly afterward, the word "turbo" was being thrown around everywhere. Even a sunglass manufacturer marketed a "turbo" line.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482511
08/08/17 09:06 AM
08/08/17 09:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,128
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

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I clicked on this thread fully expecting to see some sort of GT/battery joint venture with Tesla or similar. Imagine my surprise! LOL!


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Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482530
08/08/17 09:41 AM
08/08/17 09:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,625
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
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JHZR2  Offline
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Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2] #4482637
08/08/17 11:39 AM
08/08/17 11:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,128
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

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Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


They might be talking about the Tesla agreement, which I believe is a separate project and not part of this facility. Hopefully Shannow can correct me if I'm wrong on that point.


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Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2] #4482865
08/08/17 03:57 PM
08/08/17 03:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


Nope not sure where you drew that conclusion from...the battery is a completely different boondoggle...it's not integrated with the generators.

The hybrid that they are claiming is simply the dual fuel, and the "clever" part of being able to run them on diesel for a few years then install them somewhere with gas and (hopefully CCGT them). "without having to buy two sets of equipment"...that's spn.

On diesel, less GHG than the Northern coal plant that closed last year (spin), and on Gas less than Torrens Island (spin, and only true if they CCGT them at that point)

The battery is some loss leader deal done with Musk for undisclosed Ts and Cs, "get it in 100 days or get it free", which rumour has it is grossly oversized for it's price due to the range of ambient temps isn South Oz not playing well with it's chemistry.

edit...the battery is 100MW, 130MWh, about half hour's storage if the GTs are hooked to it.

Last edited by Shannow; 08/08/17 04:05 PM.
Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482867
08/08/17 04:03 PM
08/08/17 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Just interested in the hybrid battery system that you are suggesting (which it isn't).

What's the round trip efficiency of 37.5% generator -> battery -> inverter 50Hz ???

Looking at the cost of supply, 16c/Kw to generate, 25c/KW (levelised cost of storage per lazard papers) for the MW that you get out, 40c/kWh before youget it off the site.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482905
08/08/17 05:00 PM
08/08/17 05:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,625
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
Global Moderator
JHZR2  Offline
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New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Key thing I read:

Quote:
The units mean that South Australia will have added 275MW of diesel capacity, 100MW/129MWh of battery storage and an as yet undetermined amount of demand management to help the market operator cope with issues this summer.


So it's not dual fuel that makes this hybrid. Its rectification with the battery on a dc link, prior to making a polyphase AC output (pending 100% verification, your first link can't be opened without payment).

GTG - zigzag - rect - dc bus - batteries in parallel - converters to n phase 60Hz AC.


Nope not sure where you drew that conclusion from...the battery is a completely different boondoggle...it's not integrated with the generators.

The hybrid that they are claiming is simply the dual fuel, and the "clever" part of being able to run them on diesel for a few years then install them somewhere with gas and (hopefully CCGT them). "without having to buy two sets of equipment"...that's spn.

On diesel, less GHG than the Northern coal plant that closed last year (spin), and on Gas less than Torrens Island (spin, and only true if they CCGT them at that point)

The battery is some loss leader deal done with Musk for undisclosed Ts and Cs, "get it in 100 days or get it free", which rumour has it is grossly oversized for it's price due to the range of ambient temps isn South Oz not playing well with it's chemistry.

edit...the battery is 100MW, 130MWh, about half hour's storage if the GTs are hooked to it.


As mentioned, the first link needs subscription, the second link mentioned batteries. Hybridization of GTGs with energy storage is viable...

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482910
08/08/17 05:03 PM
08/08/17 05:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,625
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
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JHZR2  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Just interested in the hybrid battery system that you are suggesting (which it isn't).

What's the round trip efficiency of 37.5% generator -> battery -> inverter 50Hz ???

Looking at the cost of supply, 16c/Kw to generate, 25c/KW (levelised cost of storage per lazard papers) for the MW that you get out, 40c/kWh before youget it off the site.


Based upon power to energy ratios, battery efficiencies can be in the 90%+ range. Good converters >95%. Keep the cycles shallow and the battery can last a long time.

Not sure if the economics, but I'm guessing these systems aren't used that much. Have some storage for ridethrough, and it could be ok.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: JHZR2] #4482954
08/08/17 06:04 PM
08/08/17 06:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2002
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'Stralia
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
As mentioned, the first link needs subscription, the second link mentioned batteries. Hybridization of GTGs with energy storage is viable...


But that's NOT what they are doing...they are separate boondoggles.

Re: South Australia installs "hybrid" gas turbines [Re: Shannow] #4482978
08/08/17 06:26 PM
08/08/17 06:26 PM
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Posts: 42,523
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP

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'Stralia
Red marker is the location of the battery (near a wind farm under development.

Adelaide (well 10 miles north) is the locations of the GTs.

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