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#4481038 - 08/06/17 05:20 PM ZDDP Levels?
-SyN- Offline


Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 850
Loc: Tornado Alley
How important is ZDDP levels within an oil to a Roller Lifter & Cam design?

Let's say example to the Ram 5.7L with this design.
Which has shown to develop the famous roller lifter tick.
This is starting to show up more & more even on newer Rams.

There are many who have begun running Red Line oil 5W-20 / 5W-30 which has much higher levels of Moly & ZDDP and the Ticking has disappeared & has not returned.
Other oils that have lower levels of Moly / ZDDP did nothing to quiet the ticking lifters & in most cases became worse.
With Many reports of lifter collapse & cam failure.
_________________________
17 Ram 2500 6.7L CTD- >Rotella T6 5W-40
14 GMC Sierra 5.3L-->PP (HM) 10W-30
12 Ford Edge-X2 Limited & SE->PP (HM) 10W-30


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#4481088 - 08/06/17 06:20 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
SilverFusion2010 Offline


Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1663
Loc: Crawfordville FL
I wouldn't think it would need nearly as much as a flat tappet design. ZDDP is good for sliding parts, a roller lifter shouldn't be sliding
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#4481089 - 08/06/17 06:23 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
thorromig Offline


Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 804
Loc: BerksCounty/Pa.
Funny, the Hemi motors are known to run many a many miles under all sorts of duress -- you might be exaggerating some!!! shocked
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#4481090 - 08/06/17 06:24 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
FlyNavyP3 Offline


Registered: 07/04/16
Posts: 1407
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Sounds like you've been on forums where someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The Hemi has proven itself worthy over millions of accumulated miles. I've personally been inside of 8, 4 of which were fleet trucks getting engine rebuilds to go back into service for a courier service. All 4 of the fleet engines had between 365,000 and 400,000 miles. All of the camshfts were reused. Zinc is of limited benefit in a roller cam engine with respect to the roller or bearings inside the roller. All 4 of those fleet trucks never got anything other than bulk conventional oil at 10k intervals.

If you want to run Red Line go ahead. It's a great oil. But it simply isn't needed for these engines.

Of note all 4 of the high mileage Hemis could've just had rings bearings and gaskets and been returned to service. But that's not what the customer wanted so they all got a full rebuild.
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#4481099 - 08/06/17 06:31 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 20469
Loc: Upstate NY
Don't get in a tizzy over ZDDP levels.
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#4481125 - 08/06/17 06:51 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: FlyNavyP3]
burla Offline


Registered: 11/07/16
Posts: 255
Loc: sonoma
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
Sounds like you've been on forums where someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill.


That would be me. I had Redline fix my lifter tick, and subsequently over 5 years we had about 20 guys also end their 5.7 lifter ticks on Redline oil. We kept track, and it is about 80% success rate. The last guy committed to trying many different oils and in the end, he gave up on Amsoil SS 5w30, PUP 5w30 and some other oils because only Redline 5w30 keeps his 5.7 quiet.

Furthermore, we had the last 6 lifter Cam failures, as in the Cam lobs wore to the nub all with Hemi's, all trace back to engines that used oils that have zero moly. The last 6 in a row! So it is all recorded over on Ram forum, maybe some guys here would consider it or tell how Redline either worked or didn't for the Hemi ticks, but the facts are the facts and it has 4 solid years worth of backing, now going on 5.

So the question should be why did this happen? The working theory is it is Molybdenum in Redline because most of the ticks disappear only after 500 miles, if it was the base oil or esters, it likely would have ended the tick sooner?

Or is this not enough evidence to convince people of Bob's that these are facts, not a big enough control group?

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#4481140 - 08/06/17 07:12 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
-SyN- Offline


Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 850
Loc: Tornado Alley
Donald: No Tizzy ever mentioned.
I just asked a very simple question about the importance of ZDDP levels to a roller lifter cam design.
_________________________
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14 GMC Sierra 5.3L-->PP (HM) 10W-30
12 Ford Edge-X2 Limited & SE->PP (HM) 10W-30


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#4481151 - 08/06/17 07:28 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: burla]
Y_K Offline


Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 2150
Loc: WA (USA)
It may have been [also] due to the elevated HTHS values the oil is famous for...

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#4481246 - 08/06/17 09:00 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
Donald: No Tizzy ever mentioned.
I just asked a very simple question about the importance of ZDDP levels to a roller lifter cam design.


But accusing you of a tizzy adds so much drama to an otherwise boring yet informative thread. grin

Atleast I found the thread helpful.
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#4481281 - 08/06/17 09:28 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: FlyNavyP3]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6176
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3

Of note all 4 of the high mileage Hemis could've just had rings bearings and gaskets and been returned to service. But that's not what the customer wanted so they all got a full rebuild.


The customer doesn't always know best.
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(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4481365 - 08/06/17 11:01 PM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 18178
Loc: Dallas,Tx USA
High moly oils are always reported as being "quiet" oils.
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#4481400 - 08/07/17 12:45 AM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
FordCapriDriver Online   content


Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 2385
Loc: Balearic Islands , Spain
Oils high in moly are known for quietening engines a bit
Zddp would have no difference imo, and ZDDP is only something you have to worry about on flat tappet engines.
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#4481499 - 08/07/17 06:53 AM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: SilverFusion2010]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2189
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
ZDDP is good for sliding parts, a roller lifter shouldn't be sliding

Not sure if I agree with this.

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#4481504 - 08/07/17 06:58 AM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 2189
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
There are many who have begun running Red Line oil 5W-20 / 5W-30 which has much higher levels of Moly & ZDDP and the Ticking has disappeared & has not returned.
Other oils that have lower levels of Moly / ZDDP did nothing to quiet the ticking lifters & in most cases became worse.
With Many reports of lifter collapse & cam failure.

A case of more is better, though not every circumstance benefits from it. blush


Edited by zeng (08/07/17 06:59 AM)

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#4481507 - 08/07/17 07:01 AM Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: zeng]
btanchors Offline


Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 761
Loc: Herndon, VA
I have heard that the reason Red Line has high Zinc and Moly is that the nature of its base oil makes it "harder" for anti-wear additives to have their proper effect. Something about esters having a tendency to "displace" zinc and other additives. I don't know if this is true or not - if it is true, I wonder if higher zinc in a non-ester based oil would function even better.

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