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ZDDP Levels? #4481038
08/06/17 04:20 PM
08/06/17 04:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 868
Tornado Alley
-SyN- Offline OP
-SyN-  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 868
Tornado Alley
How important is ZDDP levels within an oil to a Roller Lifter & Cam design?

Let's say example to the Ram 5.7L with this design.
Which has shown to develop the famous roller lifter tick.
This is starting to show up more & more even on newer Rams.

There are many who have begun running Red Line oil 5W-20 / 5W-30 which has much higher levels of Moly & ZDDP and the Ticking has disappeared & has not returned.
Other oils that have lower levels of Moly / ZDDP did nothing to quiet the ticking lifters & in most cases became worse.
With Many reports of lifter collapse & cam failure.


17 Ram 2500 6.7L CTD- > Schaeffers 9000 5W-40
14 GMC Sierra 5.3L--> PP 10W-30 w/FU filter
17 Edge Titanium (EcoBoost) > PP 5W-30 w/RP filter

Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481088
08/06/17 05:20 PM
08/06/17 05:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,802
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,802
Crawfordville FL
I wouldn't think it would need nearly as much as a flat tappet design. ZDDP is good for sliding parts, a roller lifter shouldn't be sliding


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 181 miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481089
08/06/17 05:23 PM
08/06/17 05:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 804
BerksCounty/Pa.
thorromig Offline
thorromig  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 804
BerksCounty/Pa.
Funny, the Hemi motors are known to run many a many miles under all sorts of duress -- you might be exaggerating some!!! shocked


00 Dodge Ram 5.2L 4x4 Edge 10W30 FU (91K)
08 Acura TL Type S 3.5L PUPP 5W20 FU (101K)
17 Jetta TSI SE 1.4L Turbo - Edge 0W40 FU (Hers) (4K)
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481090
08/06/17 05:24 PM
08/06/17 05:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,661
Jacksonville, FL
FlyNavyP3 Offline
FlyNavyP3  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,661
Jacksonville, FL
Sounds like you've been on forums where someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The Hemi has proven itself worthy over millions of accumulated miles. I've personally been inside of 8, 4 of which were fleet trucks getting engine rebuilds to go back into service for a courier service. All 4 of the fleet engines had between 365,000 and 400,000 miles. All of the camshfts were reused. Zinc is of limited benefit in a roller cam engine with respect to the roller or bearings inside the roller. All 4 of those fleet trucks never got anything other than bulk conventional oil at 10k intervals.

If you want to run Red Line go ahead. It's a great oil. But it simply isn't needed for these engines.

Of note all 4 of the high mileage Hemis could've just had rings bearings and gaskets and been returned to service. But that's not what the customer wanted so they all got a full rebuild.


Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481099
08/06/17 05:31 PM
08/06/17 05:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,094
Upstate NY
Donald Online content
Donald  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,094
Upstate NY
Don't get in a tizzy over ZDDP levels.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: FlyNavyP3] #4481125
08/06/17 05:51 PM
08/06/17 05:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 430
sonoma
burla Offline
burla  Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 430
sonoma
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
Sounds like you've been on forums where someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill.


That would be me. I had Redline fix my lifter tick, and subsequently over 5 years we had about 20 guys also end their 5.7 lifter ticks on Redline oil. We kept track, and it is about 80% success rate. The last guy committed to trying many different oils and in the end, he gave up on Amsoil SS 5w30, PUP 5w30 and some other oils because only Redline 5w30 keeps his 5.7 quiet.

Furthermore, we had the last 6 lifter Cam failures, as in the Cam lobs wore to the nub all with Hemi's, all trace back to engines that used oils that have zero moly. The last 6 in a row! So it is all recorded over on Ram forum, maybe some guys here would consider it or tell how Redline either worked or didn't for the Hemi ticks, but the facts are the facts and it has 4 solid years worth of backing, now going on 5.

So the question should be why did this happen? The working theory is it is Molybdenum in Redline because most of the ticks disappear only after 500 miles, if it was the base oil or esters, it likely would have ended the tick sooner?

Or is this not enough evidence to convince people of Bob's that these are facts, not a big enough control group?

Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481140
08/06/17 06:12 PM
08/06/17 06:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 868
Tornado Alley
-SyN- Offline OP
-SyN-  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 868
Tornado Alley
Donald: No Tizzy ever mentioned.
I just asked a very simple question about the importance of ZDDP levels to a roller lifter cam design.


17 Ram 2500 6.7L CTD- > Schaeffers 9000 5W-40
14 GMC Sierra 5.3L--> PP 10W-30 w/FU filter
17 Edge Titanium (EcoBoost) > PP 5W-30 w/RP filter

Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: burla] #4481151
08/06/17 06:28 PM
08/06/17 06:28 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,304
WA (USA)
Y_K Offline
Y_K  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,304
WA (USA)
It may have been [also] due to the elevated HTHS values the oil is famous for...


"This forum talking about 4wd systems is like when other forums talk about oil."
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481246
08/06/17 08:00 PM
08/06/17 08:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
Donald: No Tizzy ever mentioned.
I just asked a very simple question about the importance of ZDDP levels to a roller lifter cam design.


But accusing you of a tizzy adds so much drama to an otherwise boring yet informative thread. grin

Atleast I found the thread helpful.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: FlyNavyP3] #4481281
08/06/17 08:28 PM
08/06/17 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,110
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,110
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3

Of note all 4 of the high mileage Hemis could've just had rings bearings and gaskets and been returned to service. But that's not what the customer wanted so they all got a full rebuild.


The customer doesn't always know best.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481365
08/06/17 10:01 PM
08/06/17 10:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,106
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Offline
aquariuscsm  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,106
Dallas,Tx USA
High moly oils are always reported as being "quiet" oils.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum 5W20

Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481400
08/06/17 11:45 PM
08/06/17 11:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,794
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,794
Balearic Islands , Spain
Oils high in moly are known for quietening engines a bit
Zddp would have no difference imo, and ZDDP is only something you have to worry about on flat tappet engines.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: SilverFusion2010] #4481499
08/07/17 05:53 AM
08/07/17 05:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,471
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,471
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
ZDDP is good for sliding parts, a roller lifter shouldn't be sliding

Not sure if I agree with this.

Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: -SyN-] #4481504
08/07/17 05:58 AM
08/07/17 05:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,471
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,471
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
There are many who have begun running Red Line oil 5W-20 / 5W-30 which has much higher levels of Moly & ZDDP and the Ticking has disappeared & has not returned.
Other oils that have lower levels of Moly / ZDDP did nothing to quiet the ticking lifters & in most cases became worse.
With Many reports of lifter collapse & cam failure.

A case of more is better, though not every circumstance benefits from it. blush

Last edited by zeng; 08/07/17 05:59 AM.
Re: ZDDP Levels? [Re: zeng] #4481507
08/07/17 06:01 AM
08/07/17 06:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Herndon, VA
btanchors Offline
btanchors  Offline
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Herndon, VA
I have heard that the reason Red Line has high Zinc and Moly is that the nature of its base oil makes it "harder" for anti-wear additives to have their proper effect. Something about esters having a tendency to "displace" zinc and other additives. I don't know if this is true or not - if it is true, I wonder if higher zinc in a non-ester based oil would function even better.

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