F1 - 2017 Hungarian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
So when it happens, he looks like a genius. And if he beats them, he looks like a hero. Win-win for Hamilton. I know you know this.;)

Pretty much, but it is annoying. At least he was mature enough to give that place back to Bottas. I would have bet against it.

As for Verstappen, I'd agree. It was a mistake, and a clumsy one. In this position, though, it's hard to blame him for taking a few extra risks. He's way down in the points. At this track, the best way to make up places, aside from a strategic miracle, is a good start, since he's clearly not going to overtake the Mercedes rivals on a straight. The real irony was that Ricciardo was bragging before the race how his tactics wouldn't be making any friends and he would be driving aggressively, yet it turns out the exact opposite way and he's more butthurt than I've ever seen him.

Verstappen was clumsy and he shouldn't have done it, but it sure as heck wasn't intentional. He's under pressure and was being aggressive. Had it been a Mercedes knocked out of the race by Verstappen, Ricciardo and Horner would have been clicking their heels about Verstappen's bravado and skill and said better luck next time for the unfortunate victim. It's different when it's on the other foot.
 
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Just watched Indycar at Mid-Ohio. One thing is clear....as far as passing aids are concerned:

PTP > DRS

DRS has simply gone down the toilet a bit with the new formula, that's all, a low flow toilet, as it were.
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Originally Posted By: Garak
The real irony was that Ricciardo was bragging before the race how his tactics wouldn't be making any friends and he would be driving aggressively, yet it turns out the exact opposite way and he's more butthurt than I've ever seen him.


Oh come on. F1 drivers drive aggressively all the time. It's known as "tough but fair". They all play the game and nobody gets hurt. In this instance Verstappen tried what would normally be a "tough but fair" manoeuvrer and exceeded his own ability in a moment of erroneous judgement. The mark of a good driver is to be able to know your and the vehicles limits. He got it wrong. Alonso vs Sainz was "tough but fair", but Alonso is a grown up and knows his limits.

Same as Magnussen on Hulkenberg. That was a "tough and unsportsmanlike" move, and the stewards saw it the same way.

There is a reason Ricciardo is known as the best overtaker in F1 at the moment (admittedly that quote came from his team Principal, but he's certainly up there) is he has an excellent feel for the limits of the vehicle and *always* leaves his competitors racing space. Just like the wheel to wheel racing we used to see between Alonso and Webber. Laps and laps of wincing and waiting for the bang, but it never came. They both had respect for each other and trust in each other. People duck for cover when they see Verstappen coming because they know he's dangerous. Cue Hamiltons quote about trying to overtake not being worth the risk.

It wasn't deliberate, but it was another example of "your ambition exceeded your ability" (One of my all time favourite Casey Stoner quotes).

He'll grow up at some point and probably turn into a pretty good driver. Vettel eventually did. At least Verstappen apologised. Vettel never did that (well, he did once but then retracted it 2 days later).

I think Daniel was really bitter because this was one of their few chances this year for a track that really suited the car and he was taken out by his team-mate in a thoroughly avoidable incident. The only time I've seen him that upset was Monaco last year, and at least he picked up 2nd there. He'll get over it.

Quote from Horner in our news this morning :

"What happened shouldn't have happened," Horner said.
"We discussed it this morning and said 'right, golden rule number one is leave space for each other at turn one and turn two. Has everybody got that?'
"Everybody nodded, and then what happened?"
 
It wasn't so much what Verstappen did, but rather when he did it. Not even halfway through the first lap is a bit soon in a race to be trying chancy moves like that. Let alone trying it on cold tires. What did he think would happen? Defending your position is one thing. But you don't try to make everything happen in the first lap of a 70 lap race. The fact he ended up taking out his teammate just made the whole thing that much worse. He is lucky he didn't break his front end and take both him and Ricciardo out. He has enough experience at this point to not be making overly aggressive moves like that. Taking too much risk, with not enough reward is always the sign of a young, overly aggressive driver. Remember Grosjean early on? They parked him for a couple of races until it sunk in. Same deal needs to happen here.
 
Max is young. He'll mature into things. In the mean time, everyone says how exciting he is. He is that.
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As for Vettel, he should have retracted that apology. It was fair payback; Webber had done that to him a season or two prior. Besides, as I said at the time, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to obtain permission.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Max is young. He'll mature into things. In the mean time, everyone says how exciting he is. He is that.
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He's also extremely talented and he should become an awesome force when he grows up. The problem is the lower formulas are where these kids are supposed to grow up, leaving the big boys toys for people who are mature enough to handle them. I guess that's why they brought in the new super license rules. Max would not have qualified. Nor would Daniel for that matter (at the age he entered) or Vettel. Another couple of years cooking in the lower formulas might have seen more complete drivers arrive in F1 rather than high talent less skilled "torpedoes".

In any case he's here now, I hope he grows up in a hurry and gets on with whipping Hamilton and takes the fight to Vettel. Either Red Bull needs to shape up or Max needs to find another seat. I wonder how much Merc would put on the table? They say Red Bull aren't interested in letting him go, but every man has his price.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
So when it happens, he looks like a genius. And if he beats them, he looks like a hero. Win-win for Hamilton. I know you know this.;)

Pretty much, but it is annoying. At least he was mature enough to give that place back to Bottas. I would have bet against it.

As for Verstappen, I'd agree. It was a mistake, and a clumsy one. In this position, though, it's hard to blame him for taking a few extra risks. He's way down in the points. At this track, the best way to make up places, aside from a strategic miracle, is a good start, since he's clearly not going to overtake the Mercedes rivals on a straight. The real irony was that Ricciardo was bragging before the race how his tactics wouldn't be making any friends and he would be driving aggressively, yet it turns out the exact opposite way and he's more butthurt than I've ever seen him.

Verstappen was clumsy and he shouldn't have done it, but it sure as heck wasn't intentional. He's under pressure and was being aggressive. Had it been a Mercedes knocked out of the race by Verstappen, Ricciardo and Horner would have been clicking their heels about Verstappen's bravado and skill and said better luck next time for the unfortunate victim. It's different when it's on the other foot.

Well said.
 
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder

I thought that also until I saw it from his onboard camera. He really didn't do anything that wrong. He just had a brief lockup in a corner during a hectic first lap. He sure didn't run in there recklessly and torpedo Ricciardo. It was just bad luck it was his teammate and that he hit him in such a vulnerable place on his car. It sucks but that's racing.



I have to disagree. Everyone, even the novice drivers, knows that the first few corners are very risky. Verstappen is going to become the black sheep because of stupid stuff like this.

As far as luck, yeah, that's a bad place for Daniel to get hit. A foot back and it might have just been a flesh wound on his car.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
As for Hamilton, he claims he likes competition. But, whenever he isn't on the front row lately, he moans that the Ferraris are going to be taking off into the distance.


You hit the nail on the head. He is starting to come off like a sore loser. I guess I like me some schadenfreude?
 
Originally Posted By: Brad_C
He's also extremely talented and he should become an awesome force when he grows up. The problem is the lower formulas are where these kids are supposed to grow up, leaving the big boys toys for people who are mature enough to handle them. I guess that's why they brought in the new super license rules. Max would not have qualified. Nor would Daniel for that matter (at the age he entered) or Vettel. Another couple of years cooking in the lower formulas might have seen more complete drivers arrive in F1 rather than high talent less skilled "torpedoes".

That is quite true. The way the rules were written, it just wound up with teams rushing to get them signed to something as quickly as possible, lest the competition try a buyout or snap them up outright. Look at the concerns over Magnussen and Vandoorne, I believe it was, over them being held on the backburner longer than they wanted.

Red Bell is making steps forward. The media pressure doesn't help on any of them, though, even with someone like Max who knows exactly what's going on behind the scenes. We have former engineers writing columns how great Red Bull is going to do this weekend, simply after seeing P2, and basically whipping up hope all season. Things take time, unfortunately. There are more talented drivers than there are championship seats. Parachuting into a good one is always difficult. Hamilton had some bad times at Mercedes, and look at Alonso's luck.
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I'm not sure if Hamilton or Vettel for that matter would want Max as a team mate. Do you really want to risk starting alongside Max often?
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