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viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection #4475384
07/31/17 08:43 AM
07/31/17 08:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Does one want an oil with low viscosity modifier content especially for direct injection engines?

GM has also decided on 30 wt oil (Timing chains, fuel dilution etc).

For most drivers changing the oil atleast twice a year would fall into the normal category. Then for most of usa you could specify 10w30 for most of the year. For the winters 5w30 recommended by say GM although it likely has lot of viscosity modifiers ? The convenience to customer factor is lost when one has to take the car in for deposits removal costing $$$. So will we go back to old days of 30wt and seasonal oil changes ?
In a way its already been done without advertising it.

Its too bad one cant use 10w30 in new GM during summer and still satisfy warranty.

Can a consumer get some idea of viscosity modifier content of an oil by looking at noack?

Last edited by merconvvv; 07/31/17 08:45 AM.

1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475407
07/31/17 09:07 AM
07/31/17 09:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,159
Boston, MA
Bgallagher Offline
Bgallagher  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,159
Boston, MA
I wouldn't look too far into it. GM recalibrated their OLMs to reflect the issues DIs have had with oil. Stick with a dexos1 approved and use top tier fuel and you will be fine


2017 Chevy Traverse - 28k - Delco Dexos 1 and PF63
2014 Chevy Equinox - 22k - Delco Dexos 1 and PF457G
2015 GMC Terrain - 22k- Delco Dexos 1 and PF457G
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475429
07/31/17 09:21 AM
07/31/17 09:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
mooferz Offline
mooferz  Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Can a consumer get some idea of viscosity modifier content of an oil by looking at noack?


The "A_Harman Index" can be used to ballpark how much the viscosity deviates from Newtonian.


2001 Lexus ES300, 235k mi, German Castrol 0w-40, Fram TG8316
1985 BMW R80RT (1L)- M1 15w-50
1993 Volvo 945 Turbo- Rotella T5 10W-30 (CJ-4)
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: mooferz] #4475544
07/31/17 11:45 AM
07/31/17 11:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Originally Posted By: mooferz
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Can a consumer get some idea of viscosity modifier content of an oil by looking at noack?


The "A_Harman Index" can be used to ballpark how much the viscosity deviates from Newtonian.


Can you give an example using m1 15w50 indicating how much "ballpark" viscosity improvers it employs.

Last edited by merconvvv; 07/31/17 11:51 AM.

1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475617
07/31/17 12:40 PM
07/31/17 12:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
mooferz Offline
mooferz  Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 325
TX
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Can you give an example using m1 15w50 indicating how much "ballpark" viscosity improvers it employs.

Using the data from https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/nausmobil-1-15w50

1. Plug the KV40 and KV100 numbers into the Widman Operational Viscosity Calculator, and calculate a KV150 number.
[email protected], [email protected]: Calculated 7.02 @ 150 C


2. Take the density at 15C, and multiply by 0.885 to get an estimate for density at 150c.
0.87 * .885 = 0.76995

3. Multiply the numbers from steps 1 and 2 to get a dynamic viscosity at 150c.
7.02*.76995 =5.405049

4. Divide HTHS by the DV150 number from step 3. This gives the fraction of HTHS to the expected dynamic viscosity of an oil at 150C.
4.5/5.405049 = 0.83256244218

So the Harman index is about .83.

Of course this is just a number without anything to compare it to. I'm not sure if there's a comprehensive Harman index list anywhere, you can find some precalculated in various threads.


2001 Lexus ES300, 235k mi, German Castrol 0w-40, Fram TG8316
1985 BMW R80RT (1L)- M1 15w-50
1993 Volvo 945 Turbo- Rotella T5 10W-30 (CJ-4)
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475775
07/31/17 03:52 PM
07/31/17 03:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Ha i feel like i am in school smile
Thankssss for the detailed example.
My math probably needs to be double check but seems consistent.

So just for fun pp 10w30
.843 at 15c
63.3 at 40
10.3 at 100
Get 4.33 in calculator

.843x.885 is .746
4.33x.746 is is 3.23
Hths eq to 3.0 i get index of .93
Hths eq to 3.1 i get .96
Hths eq to 3.2 i get .99
Exact hths is unknown to me !

So i know it has low noack and little viscosity modifiers.


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475832
07/31/17 05:13 PM
07/31/17 05:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,545
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,545
'Stralia
A couple I've done earlier
Supertech 5W30 (old data sheet) 0.895
TGMO 0.8465
Citgo 20W20 1.02
Ravenol 0W16 0.99
Castrol Edge 10W30 0.940
Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W30 0.9481
Castrol Edge 25W50 1.05
Hitec 10W40 0.946

Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475850
07/31/17 05:38 PM
07/31/17 05:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
Anything dexos 1 will work, but if I had a GM engine down here I wouldn't hesitate to run a quality 10w-30. They tend to have little VII and stand up to heat and shear very well


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 181 miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4475894
07/31/17 06:22 PM
07/31/17 06:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Pyb sae 30
Hths. harmon Index
3.0. 0.90
3.1. .93
3.2. .96
3.3. .99

Qsud 10w30
3.0 .92
3.1 .95
3.2 .98
3.3 1.01

Qsud 5w30
3.0. .95
3.1 .984

Pp 5w20
2.5 .93
2.6 .96
2.7 1.0

Does gm 4718m have min hths requirement smile
We know 5w30 and 10w30 above meet that spec.


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4476341
08/01/17 08:32 AM
08/01/17 08:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
What is the noack of viscosity modiefier say one by infineum?


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: viscosity modifiers, noack and GM direct injection [Re: merconvvv] #4477291
08/02/17 09:24 AM
08/02/17 09:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline OP
merconvvv  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Here are a few more.

Pp 5w30
Hths index
3.0 .90
3.1 .93
3.2 .96

M1 10w30
3.0 .933

M1 10w30ep
3.0 .93
3.1 .96

M1 10w30 hm
3.5 .926

M1 0w40
3.6 .87


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0

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