Electrical - Surge Protectors and Extension Cords

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So let me start by stating, I'm not a complete noob. Daisy-chaining, using multiple extension cords or multiple surge protectors, is a
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. But here's my problem. I live in an older house ('61). The main portion of my house is not properly grounded. The newer, added-on portion of the house is. I rent this house, therefore I do not want to spend the $5-8k to upgrade the electrical equipment. I purchased a pricey new router and don't want it without surge protection. I also wish to hook up a TV, PS4, and a powered external hard drive on the same grounded outlet (these aren't currently grounded and I wish to move them and change that). I have a very good surge protector which has a 6' cord, 14AWG, but it won't quite reach from my closest grounded outlet in a hallway to my living room where I need the surge protection. I am short by about 8 feet.

So my question is, considering the surge protector is built with a 6' 14AWG cord, could I buy a 10' 12AWG extension cord, plug the extension cord into the wall outlet, then plug the surge protector into the extension cord? This would make the weakest link the surge protector (current-wise), and I know it can hold it's own weight plus the load I'm putting on it. I'm just not sure about compromising the surge protection with the extension...

I know the shorter the cord, the better off I'll be, however I may have to go up to 25' on the 12AWG extension cord for availability reasons (even though I really don't want to). But if there is something I'm missing, I'd rather err to the side of safety and abandon this idea. If I have to abandon it, my next best option is running about 100' of various CAT5E ethernet cables across my house, and leaving my TV, PS4 and hard drive ungrounded. That's not exactly ideal either. Any thoughts or input? Thanks in advance!
 
What would the load be? if under 10 amps it should be fine.. infinitely.

A led/lcd tv should be 50-130w depending on model router 15-30w? ps4 150w(while gaming) HDD 10-15w

seems like maybe 3amps total..

The main thing to remember is buy a good extension cord.. and if you have to run it under a door 12 gauge likely wont fit.

You should be fine with a 50ft length and 14gauge.
Obviously 12gauge and 25ft is superior.
 
You'd be fine even with a 14 AWG cord. The stuff you're running will have universal power supplies that take 100-250 volts so a slight voltage drop won't do it in... and you won't even get that slight drop due to low current demands.

Are you worried about lightning directly striking your house, or??? Having cords snaking all over the place and that ethernet cable too could cause trouble.
 
Why not just splice a 12g cord of the desired length to the surge and not depend on the weak link - the extra plug.
 
Surge protection is really about providing protection against small spikes that may cumulatively damage equipment. However, for the most part I think it's overrated. The most important function of these things are the better ones with lighting protection (it will literally sacrifice itself) and that requires a proper ground.

I do remember buying an APC surge protector. They had guarantee to replace anything damaged, but in order to keep the guarantee the only extension that could be used was another APC device. They did allow them to be daisy chained, but of course the limit would be the enough current to max the limit of any device. I don't think that particular kills one because they typically have local circuit breakers.

I doubt you have much of an issue provided you use a good quality commercial-grade extension.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
What would the load be? if under 10 amps it should be fine.. infinitely.

A led/lcd tv should be 50-130w depending on model router 15-30w? ps4 150w(while gaming) HDD 10-15w

seems like maybe 3amps total..

The main thing to remember is buy a good extension cord.. and if you have to run it under a door 12 gauge likely wont fit.

You should be fine with a 50ft length and 14gauge.
Obviously 12gauge and 25ft is superior.

What would the load be? Idk how it technically adds up (which is why I never do this [censored]).

TV is a Nov. 2011 46" Sony Bravia LCD, not LED (KDL-46BX420, states "210W" on it's info decal).

The PS4 is the original version (model CUH-1115A, states "250W" on it's decal fwiw).

HDD power supply: "Input:100-240V~ 50-60Hz 0.5A Max. Output: 12V 1.5A".

Forgot to mention there will also probably be a Roku device too on a 1A charger.

Yes, this does cross a doorway with a 10' cord, but if I use a 25' cord, I could go up and around it. I'm debating which is the lesser evil: longer cord length or walking over the cord. If I'm walking over it, obviously I'll buy the appropriate protector/cover.
 
IIRC you want the surge protection closest to the source. So Id plug the surge strip to the outlet, and then run an extension cord to the load. Because the router will pull next to no current, the IR drop will be minimal, and you don't need a heavy cord. How much other load you'll pull through the surge strip will be defined by ampacity of the cord between the strip and the wall, and/or the rest of the circuit/breaker/etc.

Another option, possibly better even, would be a surge suppressor that plugs directly to the outlet, like the isobar 2 then just run an appropriately sized extension cord to the load.
 
None of those electronics are going to come close to maxing out a household circuit, so I think you'll be fine just as long as the extension cord isn't some hilariously cheap POS.

The only thing I will caution is not to turn all of those electronics on at the same instant as some of those power supplies may spike briefly.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
What would the load be? if under 10 amps it should be fine.. infinitely.
You should be fine with a 50ft length and 14gauge.
Obviously 12gauge and 25ft is superior.


Correct. 14 gauge is PLENTY.

Come back and ask us if it's OK once you start plugging in coffee makers, window unit A/C's, and toaster ovens.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
IIRC you want the surge protection closest to the source. So Id plug the surge strip to the outlet, and then run an extension cord to the load. Because the router will pull next to no current, the IR drop will be minimal, and you don't need a heavy cord. How much other load you'll pull through the surge strip will be defined by ampacity of the cord between the strip and the wall, and/or the rest of the circuit/breaker/etc.

Another option, possibly better even, would be a surge suppressor that plugs directly to the outlet, like the isobar 2 then just run an appropriately sized extension cord to the load.
Interesting, I do also have a surge protector that attaches directly to the outlet and has 5 outlets on it, although the joule rating is not as good as the 6' cord, but I'll take wjat I can get at this point. Even if I did this, and used a quality 12 AWG cable (even if overkill, would give peace of mind knowing it's superior), how would I go about plugging 5 devices into the extension cord? I would need another power tap of some sort, which would lead to more problems. That is why my mind went to the opposite way with outlet->extension->surge(with 6 outlets). Am I missing something? Thanks for the input though. Sorry if this post made it sound like I was being critical. I genuinely appreciate the help. If anything, I want you guys to be critical!
 
Wow, I think I was missing something, and I think I solved my own problem.
There are surge protectors that have 15+ foot cords...
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The cost of one is worth the peace of mind. Thanks guys!
 
Many houses in '61 grounded the metal outlet box, but still installed 2 prong adapters. I'd check to see if you have a ground wire. It should be easy to see. If so, just switch out the plugs to the 3 prong variety and connect the plugs to the metal box with a small ground wire. You should be able to see the ground wire on the old Romex. It should take about 10 min max to shut off the circuit breaker, strip and size the ground wire, replace the plugs, and restore power.
 
Along with Point-of-Use Surge Protection,
it's also recommended to use a Whole House Surge Protector.
Even if your renting, you could install one (if Landlord allows).
The Eaton (ULTRA) gets good reviews.
To install, you need (2) empty circuit breaker spots.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136?&cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|B|0|B-BASE-D27E+Electrical|&mid=ToCtD7GL|dc_mtid_8903vry57826_pcrid_73392414173109_pkw__pmt__

Here is another post about someone asking about surge protection.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1393847/Surge_protectors
 
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Originally Posted By: tony1679
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
IIRC you want the surge protection closest to the source. So Id plug the surge strip to the outlet, and then run an extension cord to the load. Because the router will pull next to no current, the IR drop will be minimal, and you don't need a heavy cord. How much other load you'll pull through the surge strip will be defined by ampacity of the cord between the strip and the wall, and/or the rest of the circuit/breaker/etc.

Another option, possibly better even, would be a surge suppressor that plugs directly to the outlet, like the isobar 2 then just run an appropriately sized extension cord to the load.
Interesting, I do also have a surge protector that attaches directly to the outlet and has 5 outlets on it, although the joule rating is not as good as the 6' cord, but I'll take wjat I can get at this point. Even if I did this, and used a quality 12 AWG cable (even if overkill, would give peace of mind knowing it's superior), how would I go about plugging 5 devices into the extension cord? I would need another power tap of some sort, which would lead to more problems. That is why my mind went to the opposite way with outlet->extension->surge(with 6 outlets). Am I missing something? Thanks for the input though. Sorry if this post made it sound like I was being critical. I genuinely appreciate the help. If anything, I want you guys to be critical!
A surge protector is only as good as the reference ground it sees at the breaker box. You need a good "house" ground to shunt the spike into and many houses have only a marginal one. A friend was blowing starter capacitors on his central air. I suggested we check the breaker box ground. It looked fine until I nudged it with my shoe and discovered that what should have been an 8 foot rod was only two feet long...just enough to fool the electrical inspector. There was a large rock under the rod and the contractor had simply cut the rod instead of spending the time and money to relocate it.
 
Originally Posted By: larryinnewyork
Along with Point-of-Use Surge Protection,
it's also recommended to use a Whole House Surge Protector.
Even if your renting, you could install one (if Landlord allows).
The Eaton (ULTRA) gets good reviews.
To install, you need (2) empty circuit breaker spots.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136?&cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|B|0|B-BASE-D27E+Electrical|&mid=ToCtD7GL|dc_mtid_8903vry57826_pcrid_73392414173109_pkw__pmt__

Here is another post about someone asking about surge protection.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1393847/Surge_protectors


I installed one of those in my box and knock on wood all has been fine. It hasn't tripped yet, but I assume the LED in it goes off when the MOVs or whatever is in the circuit gets sufficiently eroded.
 
Originally Posted By: NO2
Many houses in '61 grounded the metal outlet box, but still installed 2 prong adapters. I'd check to see if you have a ground wire. It should be easy to see. If so, just switch out the plugs to the 3 prong variety and connect the plugs to the metal box with a small ground wire. You should be able to see the ground wire on the old Romex. It should take about 10 min max to shut off the circuit breaker, strip and size the ground wire, replace the plugs, and restore power.


He said he rents. Most landlords would frown upon their tenants playing electrician with their property. Especially in homes from the 60s that prob have that cheesy wiring insulation that falls apart if you disturb it now.

IF you want ground then I would get this
https://www.amazon.com/GE-14404-Polarized-Grounding-Adapter/dp/B00B7PK1TC/
and connect it to the cover plate screw. If the box is grounded that will pick it up. You can test for ground with something like this
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-50542/dp/B002LZTKIA/

If you are worried about overloading your setup and dont want to do the math then get something like this
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/
and measure the actual current being use.
 
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Originally Posted By: tony1679
Am I missing something?

Yes - massively. Best protection for all circuits (two wire or three) has always been the solution that costs about $1 per protection appliance. Then even direct lightning strikes do not overwhelm best protection that is already inside appliances.

I hardly know where to being since so many of your paragraphs are based in myths, lies, advertising, speculatoin, and, well, where are the many and relevant numbers? No numbers is the first indication of fables, myths, spins, and misinformation.

A protector adjacent to an appliance can even compromise (bypass) what is better protection inside that appliance.

An adjacent protector must either 'block' or 'absorb' energy. How does its 2 cm protector part 'block' what three miles of sky cannot?

Or read specification numbers. How many joules does it claim to 'absorb'? Hundreds? Thousand? Potentially destructive surges may be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why do others not post these numbers? Wild speculation, hearsay, advertising and junk science reasoning promotes many ineffective solutions.

If anything needs protection, then everything (dishwasher, CFL & LED bulbs, furnace, dimmer switches, refrigerator, recharing electronics, GFCIs, central air, clocks ... everything) needs that protection. So informed consumers properly earth (no safety ground) properly earth a 'whole house' protector. Properly earth? To single point earth ground. On a connection that is low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). Then hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly 'absorbed' outside. Then no surge is inside to overwhelm what is already best protection inside each appliance.

Notice - numbers.

Safety (wall receptacle) ground is irrelvant. Best protection even 100 years ago needs no safety (wall receptacle) ground. Best protection is only as effective as its earth ground.

Why do ineffective protectors with massive (obscene) profit margins not discuss any of this? Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for how much? When does the word 'scam' become obvious?

Makes absolutely no difference if receptacles have or do not have a safety ground ... when discussing surge protection. But that safety ground (or a GFCI) must exist if using plug-in protectors. Otherwise a threat to human life exists.

Did those plug-in protector manufacturers fail to admit why a wall receptacle safety ground must exist? To protect human life. It does nothing to protect appliances.

How many knew what was well understood and implemented even over 100 years ago? So many are educated by subjective reasoning, hearsay, wild speculation and advertising. And not by well proven science ... with numbers.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That connection must be low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Ignore the so many lies about a wall receptacle safety ground. It does nothing to protect appliances.
 
Originally Posted By: NO2
Many houses in '61 grounded the metal outlet box, but still installed 2 prong adapters. I'd check to see if you have a ground wire. It should be easy to see. If so, just switch out the plugs to the 3 prong variety and connect the plugs to the metal box with a small ground wire. You should be able to see the ground wire on the old Romex. It should take about 10 min max to shut off the circuit breaker, strip and size the ground wire, replace the plugs, and restore power.
Originally Posted By: larryinnewyork
Along with Point-of-Use Surge Protection,
it's also recommended to use a Whole House Surge Protector.
Even if your renting, you could install one (if Landlord allows).
The Eaton (ULTRA) gets good reviews.
To install, you need (2) empty circuit breaker spots.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136?&cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|B|0|B-BASE-D27E+Electrical|&mid=ToCtD7GL|dc_mtid_8903vry57826_pcrid_73392414173109_pkw__pmt__

Here is another post about someone asking about surge protection.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1393847/Surge_protectors
I highly appreciate the help, however both of these answers are a no-go. Unfortunately, the '61 house also comes with the original '61 FEDERAL PACIFIC breaker box. Certified electricians are scared sh*tless of these boxes. They all say replace it asap! Those who don't say "replace it" instead say "if it hasn't burned up after this long, it probably won't, but don't go poking at a fire breathing dragon." So I positively will NOT screw with that box unless I'm totally replacing it. And I'm not replacing a box I don't own, so I'm stuck with what I have. That's why I'm also extremely cautious regarding anything electrical in this house, and keep the load to a minimum (such as converting the whole house to LED, etc).
 
Originally Posted By: westom
Originally Posted By: tony1679
Am I missing something?

Yes - massively.
Like your post? Seriously, I've seen your (identical) posts in countless forums using the same username. You may be right, you may be wrong. I'm not here to argue that. But the common theme in your posts is that you think people need joule protection in the "hundreds of thousands." I'm not trying to stop (sorry! *divert*) a lightning bolt. I'm trying to prevent a few joules here and there like when someone plugs in a phone charger and it arcs ever so slightly, or when the power goes out, or something similarly puny. If lightning hits directly, either my renters insurance will pay, or I'm SOL (and that's if the lightning doesn't kill me). I'll evaluate my options/decisions when and if that should occur.

Besides, how do you think my 1961 Federal Pacific breaker box is going to stand up to said surge even if I did exactly as you say?!?

I'm sure this post has some error(s) in it by your expertise. But I respectfully withdraw myself from this inevitably long conversation.
 
Originally Posted By: tony1679
But the common theme in your posts is that you think people need joule protection in the "hundreds of thousands." I'm not trying to stop (sorry! *divert*) a lightning bolt. I'm trying to prevent a few joules here and there like when someone plugs in a phone charger and it arcs ever so slightly, or when the power goes out, or something similarly puny.

Apparently you have been easily manipulated by myths about damage from near zero events made completely irrelevant by existing and routine protection (even inside a phone charger). An arc during connection causes no damage. Every item powered by a switch causes arcing. Power outage never damages properly designed electronic appliance - even long before you were born. Anything that puny is completely irrelevant due to what is already required and is routinely found inside electronics (and other appliances).

Even hundreds or thousand joule transients are routinely converted by your electronics into rock stable, low DC voltages to safety power all semiconductors. You concern here is something that might be a threat once every seven years. That does not stress a Federal Pacific box. But a Federal Pacific box might need that protection.

Your concerns and conclusions exist due to no perspective - no numbers. Hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth. Those joules do not exist inside a breaker box. Best protector means events that can be destructive connect to and dissipate in earth. Not anywhere inside. Protector (and breaker box) consumes almost no energy - if using that proven solution.

Be concerned for household safety if this does not exist and if plug-in protectors exist.

Changes inside a Federal Pacific box are unnecessary. That was you, again, making assumptions rather than learning of the many options. This best protection for every appliance can be installed in an electric meter pan. Even installed by the electric company rather than an electrician. Even a landlord cannot stop or block that installation.

What can cause a Federal Pacific box to cause a fire? If proper protection does not exist, then the resulting failures or follow through currents require a circuit breaker to trip. Why are Federal Pacific boxes so dangerous? Those breakers fail to trip. A 'whole house' solution even averts some events that would necessitate tripped breakers. Just another reason why a 'whole house' solution should be installed. Others don't have this additional threat that you have.

What would be at greater risk than a phone charger? Dishwasher, GFCI, refrigerator, dimmer switches, central air, and smoke detectors. What does put a phone charger at risk means other listed appliances are at even greater risk. Those definitely need 'whole house' protection.

My complaint here is obvious. Your denials and concerns are justified only by wild speculation - not by facts with numbers. A Federal Pacific box is a threat because circuit breakers fail to trip. 'Whole house' protection adds zero stress to that box. Many other options exist so that one need not make any changes in that box. You dismiss what is your best option using reasons that just do not exist, are not defined by why a Federal Pacific box is dangerous, are fictional (ie charger arcing), and this is most important - are not justified by any numbers.

Others do not have that one more reason also says why you need a 'whole house' solution. You have a Federal Pacific box. Others do not.
 
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