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Pilot shortage #4472634
07/28/17 04:24 AM
07/28/17 04:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,438
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,438
Georgia
We've spoken about the looming pilot shortage before as well as the push for more cockpit automation. Here is another article on the shortage itself. I still feel that this situation will drive the "pilot assistant" type of automation. But until then, if you can meet the various levels of qualification, the future appears bright for aspiring pilots. Makes you wonder how it got to this point. It isn't all about the Colgan crash and the silliness that followed (the article says both Colgan pilots were 1500+ hour pilots - is that true?).

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/27/news/companies/pilot-shortage-figures/index.html

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472651
07/28/17 05:35 AM
07/28/17 05:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,761
The Midwest
skyactiv Online content
skyactiv  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,761
The Midwest
Its because business expects to pull qualified people out of thin air.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472652
07/28/17 05:36 AM
07/28/17 05:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,629
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,629
Orlando, FL
If I was younger I would train to be a pilot.

Great for pilot pay if there is a big shortage in 10 years.

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472665
07/28/17 05:57 AM
07/28/17 05:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,761
The Midwest
skyactiv Online content
skyactiv  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,761
The Midwest
I'm a journeyman semi mechanic at UPS. You wouldn't believe what UPS pilots make an hour. I saw in a contract book a captain makes well over $200 an hour.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472674
07/28/17 06:11 AM
07/28/17 06:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
L_Sludger Offline
L_Sludger  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
Pilot shortage talk is horse hockey meant to give senior captains a couple more years (Age 67 or Age 70 is their objective)


too many cars and oil combinations to list in 150 characters or less
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: skyactiv] #4472727
07/28/17 07:29 AM
07/28/17 07:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,736
New York
pbm Offline
pbm  Offline
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,736
New York
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I'm a journeyman semi mechanic at UPS. You wouldn't believe what UPS pilots make an hour. I saw in a contract book a captain makes well over $200 an hour.


So a pilot 'Captain' working 40 hours a week makes $400K a year...a non-Captain obviously makes less...

Did you know that the average salary given to a member of the Bd. of Directors of a major corporation is $258K a year....this means he/she gets $258K to attend a few meetings a year........he/she may also be on the Bd. of several corporations, collecting an average of $258K annually from each....this is on top of the grossly exorbitant 'retirement 'packages' that these 'executives' receive. This is the 'income inequality' that we often hear about (and despite the rhetoric this inequality grew under the 8 years of the previous administration).....

....so I don't begrudge a pilot (operating a multi million dollar piece of machinery) or a doctor (operating on priceless machinery) or engineers, chemists, physicists etc...(who are all underpaid) their salaries. I do, however, begrudge the CEOs, bankers etc....whose 'compensation' has far exceeded their worth and caused much of the pricing out of the middle class...

PS: My daughter just graduated with a Bachelors of Science in Nursing and started a job down south in a critical care (high stress) unit for less than $22 an hour....the CEO of the Hospital Corporation makes between 5 and 6 million dollars a year....unbelievable...


'Journalism is Dead'
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: pbm] #4472733
07/28/17 07:41 AM
07/28/17 07:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6
Seattle
m_peterson6 Offline
m_peterson6  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6
Seattle
Pilots are only paid while they are flying....the flight plan time and delays are not paid time. Pilots probably get about 80 hours paid a month.

The shortage is because of the rise in commuter airlines. 20 years ago commuter airline flights were about 15% of the flights, now it is about 50%. Pilots would take the low pay commuter airline job as a stepping stone to the "majors". Now a days you may never get out of the commuter airlines because it is such a large share of the market.

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472784
07/28/17 08:44 AM
07/28/17 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 864
N. Georgia Mtns
Sierra048 Offline
Sierra048  Offline
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 864
N. Georgia Mtns
My youngest son is a Major in the USAF and a pilot. He just got out of active duty and joined the reserve. He applied to several airlines while transitioning over. He was contacted by just about every one of them. He interviewed with the ones he was most interested in and ended up with Delta. Pretty much offered him the job before leaving his interview.


2014 Nissan Frontier
2014 GMC Sierra 1500
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472788
07/28/17 08:45 AM
07/28/17 08:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 72
Charlotte
planeman223 Offline
planeman223  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 72
Charlotte
3 main things are driving this...

1. The 1500 hour rule. Accumulating 1500 hours of flight time (plus multi-engine, night, cross country flying etc) is EXTREMELY expensive. You're probably looking at $100,000 minimum just to be eligible experience wise.

2. The baby boomer generation is retiring in large numbers.

3. The pay at most regional airlines is less than ideal for someone in 6 figure debt.

-Alex

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: m_peterson6] #4472830
07/28/17 09:16 AM
07/28/17 09:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: m_peterson6
Pilots are only paid while they are flying....the flight plan time and delays are not paid time. Pilots probably get about 80 hours paid a month.


PFFFFTT! If you're extremely lucky!!!

Originally Posted By: m_peterson6
Now a days you may never get out of the commuter airlines because it is such a large share of the market.


100% true, and the pay is A W F U L


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: planeman223] #4472833
07/28/17 09:17 AM
07/28/17 09:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: planeman223

3. The pay at most regional airlines is less than ideal for someone in 6 figure debt.


That's the nicest way possible of putting it.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: planeman223] #4472834
07/28/17 09:17 AM
07/28/17 09:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,968
IL
Vern_in_IL Offline
Vern_in_IL  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,968
IL
Originally Posted By: planeman223
3 main things are driving this...

1. The 1500 hour rule. Accumulating 1500 hours of flight time (plus multi-engine, night, cross country flying etc) is EXTREMELY expensive. You're probably looking at $100,000 minimum just to be eligible experience wise.

2. The baby boomer generation is retiring in large numbers.

3. The pay at most regional airlines is less than ideal for someone in 6 figure debt.

-Alex


The FAA needs some serious reforms, it is the FAA that has caused the pilot shortage to begin with!

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472855
07/28/17 09:30 AM
07/28/17 09:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Kuato Offline
Kuato  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
We've spoken about the looming pilot shortage before as well as the push for more cockpit automation. Here is another article on the shortage itself. I still feel that this situation will drive the "pilot assistant" type of automation. But until then, if you can meet the various levels of qualification, the future appears bright for aspiring pilots. Makes you wonder how it got to this point. It isn't all about the Colgan crash and the silliness that followed (the article says both Colgan pilots were 1500+ hour pilots - is that true?).

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/27/news/companies/pilot-shortage-figures/index.html


Yes, both Colgan pilots were over 1500 hours. I was in the First Officer's new hire class; she started at Colgan with just over 1800 hours. The Captain had more hours but I don't know his total.

The Colgan accident was mostly about fatigue, which the new rest rules were intended to address.


Originally Posted By: m_peterson6
Pilots are only paid while they are flying....the flight plan time and delays are not paid time. Pilots probably get about 80 hours paid a month.


Correct; so the UPS Captain's salary at $200 per hour is around 192k per year. However it is a long road before you get to that point. Being a pilot isn't like being a lawyer or doctor, where you start at 150k+ per year right out of school. There are a series of jobs you'll hold along the way, with substandard pay, poor equipment, poor maintenance, or any combination thereof. Ramen noodles are a staple for many just starting out in the industry, and the UPS Captain mentioned above has probably been flying for his livelihood at least 15-20 years before he got to that level.

Educational costs for pilots can run the same as a college education, so many pilots start with huge debts in addition to low pay. I recall hearing about one internal memo at a regional airline, telling First Officers not to apply for food stamps in uniform.

Originally Posted By: m_peterson6

The shortage is because of the rise in commuter airlines. 20 years ago commuter airline flights were about 15% of the flights, now it is about 50%. Pilots would take the low pay commuter airline job as a stepping stone to the "majors". Now a days you may never get out of the commuter airlines because it is such a large share of the market.


Correct in part; in many markets, it's less expensive for the major airlines to pay a regional to do the same routes in smaller equipment since the passenger loads are less. In the US, we're spoiled by having numerous flights available from A to B each day; in other areas of the world there are only one or two flights per day - sometimes one or two flights per week.





Thick vs Thin test: 15k / 43k miles complete
Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472900
07/28/17 10:07 AM
07/28/17 10:07 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,454
Baltimore, Maryland, USA
zzyzzx Offline
zzyzzx  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,454
Baltimore, Maryland, USA
No such thing as a shortage of workers. Only a shortage of employers willing to pay market wages.

Re: Pilot shortage [Re: DeepFriar] #4472924
07/28/17 10:29 AM
07/28/17 10:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,629
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,629
Orlando, FL
Quote:
Being a pilot isn't like being a lawyer or doctor, where you start at 150k+ per year right out of school.


No disrespect intended, but it's laughable you think lawyers start at $150K + per year.

My lawyer older sister makes $500 an hour ($450 if she feels sorry for client) but that's with 25+ years experience. Tons of unemployed law grads begging for an entry level job with law firm. Too many young adults had big $$$$ in their heads and went to law school expecting what you mentioned.


With any career field you start at the bottom of the pay scale and work your way up with years of experience and hands on OJT. If civilian pilots (non military) want to be a commercial airline pilot.... they'll have to pay their dues and fly for peanuts when first starting out. 20+ years they'll be in a better position than very first job.


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