Recent Topics
Chevy Commercial Parody
by 02SE. 12/17/18 02:37 AM
Fluctuating Tachometer Fixed!
by jerseyguy123. 12/17/18 02:10 AM
2015 MB GLA250: OEM oil vs Mobil1 Formula M
by SlavaB. 12/17/18 12:39 AM
Shotgun Ammo
by user52165. 12/16/18 10:24 PM
Bought a Model 3 for wifey
by JeffKeryk. 12/16/18 09:01 PM
Maybe I'm crazy.
by TRDPRO85. 12/16/18 07:50 PM
Pacer EON E-11 Synthetic Motor Fluid
by Brandon9797. 12/16/18 07:46 PM
Reuse transmission fluid??
by FFeng7. 12/16/18 07:35 PM
Amsoil SS color change
by BigShug681. 12/16/18 07:21 PM
Why don't owner's manuals specify the oil type
by OilUzer. 12/16/18 07:13 PM
belt tensioner problems
by mobilaltima. 12/16/18 06:57 PM
How bout them Patriots
by 53' Stude. 12/16/18 06:36 PM
Hand held Ham radio suggestions
by littleant. 12/16/18 05:20 PM
Ford 2.3 EB's using 87 vs 91/93 octane
by Whimsey. 12/16/18 04:48 PM
Oil analysis pump tube?
by maximum6. 12/16/18 03:56 PM
Mahle charcoal lined filter..the best!
by TiGeo. 12/16/18 03:45 PM
Newest Members
stantaur, Brandon9797, Landngroove, DanielH, Cpcz9382
66700 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
49 registered members (87sammy, bfleeman, alarmguy, 69Torino, ArrestMeRedZ, Brandon9797, 5 invisible), 923 guests, and 47 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,172
Posts4,929,136
Members66,700
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium #4470198
07/25/17 03:19 PM
07/25/17 03:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
bradtech Offline OP
bradtech  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
Based on what I've seen on here. It seems most people prefer SOPUS oils with moly/boron based add packs. I noticed Castrol also has moved over in their synthetic oils to Moly/Boron with some added titanium. Has anyone seen any evidence of them being superior to Sodium based add packs found in Valvoline, Castrol GTX, Royal Purple that usually doesn't have any boron cleaner/moly friction modifiers in them? Or does it boil down to it depending on the type of engine etc.


Last edited by bradtech; 07/25/17 03:20 PM.

17 Chevrolet Malibu 3k 5w30 AC Delco Full Syn
08 Hyundai Santa Fe 78k 5w20 GTX HM OEM Filter
93 Chevy S10 203k 10w30 GTX HM ACDELCO PF52E Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470220
07/25/17 03:46 PM
07/25/17 03:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Following.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470233
07/25/17 04:09 PM
07/25/17 04:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,133
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Offline
aquariuscsm  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,133
Dallas,Tx USA
The oils that always are said to be "smooth and quiet" always have a lot of moly. I've also read here on the forum that moly is an expensive additive. I prefer oils with moly.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum 5W20

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470259
07/25/17 04:38 PM
07/25/17 04:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 82
Appalachia
Wurlitzer Offline
Wurlitzer  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 82
Appalachia
bump

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470260
07/25/17 04:39 PM
07/25/17 04:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,258
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,258
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Boron/moly additive packages are not alternatives to sodium. Moly is a friction modifier (and anti-wear at higher concentrations). Sodium is part of the detergent package.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470263
07/25/17 04:44 PM
07/25/17 04:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 508
Southern Indiana
Mantooth Offline
Mantooth  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 508
Southern Indiana
popcorn


'14 Durango AWD 3.6,(mine) Hav ProDS 5w30/Napa Gold
'15 Journey AWD 3.6, (wife's) Napa Syn 5w20/Napa Gold
'01 F250 4x4 7.3PSD, 126k, M1 TDT 5w40/MC

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470270
07/25/17 04:50 PM
07/25/17 04:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,540
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,540
...
A number of people here have mentioned that Valvoline runs very smooth and quiet. I've noticed this myself as well. Does it really matter what is in the package as long as it performs well?


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470282
07/25/17 05:01 PM
07/25/17 05:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 07/25/17 05:02 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470301
07/25/17 05:37 PM
07/25/17 05:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
ndfergy Offline
ndfergy  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


2015 Toyota Yaris 5spd Manual
Summer: Mobil Super 1000 10w30
Winter: Mobil Super 1000 5w30
OEM Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4470348
07/25/17 06:39 PM
07/25/17 06:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

I liked this paper. The problem is that it applies to that engine. You can't necessarily extrapolate that to your engine

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: ndfergy] #4470401
07/25/17 07:41 PM
07/25/17 07:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
bradtech Offline OP
bradtech  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
Good read thanks for the info. I run GTX HM in 2 of my 3 vehicles which last I checked has no moly or boron. Somehow I missed this article in research trying to compare the different oils and their add packs/detergents.

Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


17 Chevrolet Malibu 3k 5w30 AC Delco Full Syn
08 Hyundai Santa Fe 78k 5w20 GTX HM OEM Filter
93 Chevy S10 203k 10w30 GTX HM ACDELCO PF52E Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470462
07/25/17 08:45 PM
07/25/17 08:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,424
The Northeast
mclasser Offline
mclasser  Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,424
The Northeast
Followed.


2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 6K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 57K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 212K

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bigj_16] #4470673
07/26/17 07:11 AM
07/26/17 07:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


Very interesting...thanks to you for posting and to Molakule for writing it!
That's one of the things about working with limited information, I don't know if the sodium I see in some VOAs is from detergents or from other types of oil additives...and, I don't know if it's just sodium-based detergents that can affect LSPI, or other sodium compounds, too. Given that sodium does not appear to be a necessary component in a modern motor oil, I just try to avoid it for now. I guess that if I see that an oil with sodium has passed dexos1 Gen 2 (or GF6, whenever that gets going) with an LSPI test, I feel that I can have some confidence that it's still a good choice for my DIT engine.

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

I liked this paper. The problem is that it applies to that engine. You can't necessarily extrapolate that to your engine


Good point, but I'm probably going to be waiting for a long time to see test results in my particular 2.0l Subie DIT engine. I try to make the best decision I can with limited information...I was aware of and considering LSPI in my oil choices before my car was recalled for it, but that's what really got me thinking that I had to take it seriously as a real world problem and not some sort of unrealistic lab creation.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4471007
07/26/17 12:09 PM
07/26/17 12:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 677
New England
jdavis Offline
jdavis  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 677
New England
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi

I guess that if I see that an oil with sodium has passed dexos1 Gen 2 (or GF6, whenever that gets going) with an LSPI test, I feel that I can have some confidence that it's still a good choice for my DIT engine.



There's already a number of Valvoline (and Napa) oils with sodium that are dexo1s Gen 2 approved as far as I know..

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4471232
07/26/17 04:33 PM
07/26/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,184
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,184
OH
It should be noted that sodium and moly are not mutually exclusive in add packs.
Valvoline Maxlife uses Valvoline's classic sodium add pack but also featured moly until the
most recent reformulation.
Valvoline's API oils seem as smooth as anything else in those applications in which I've tried them
and we have a real engine builder here who has written that he sees unusually clean internals as well
as very low wear in engines that he's torn down that had been run on Valvoline oils.
There are many different routes to the same end.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™