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Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium #4470198
07/25/17 04:19 PM
07/25/17 04:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
bradtech Offline OP
bradtech  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
Based on what I've seen on here. It seems most people prefer SOPUS oils with moly/boron based add packs. I noticed Castrol also has moved over in their synthetic oils to Moly/Boron with some added titanium. Has anyone seen any evidence of them being superior to Sodium based add packs found in Valvoline, Castrol GTX, Royal Purple that usually doesn't have any boron cleaner/moly friction modifiers in them? Or does it boil down to it depending on the type of engine etc.


Last edited by bradtech; 07/25/17 04:20 PM.

17 Chevrolet Malibu 3k 5w30 AC Delco Full Syn
08 Hyundai Santa Fe 78k 5w20 GTX HM OEM Filter
93 Chevy S10 203k 10w30 GTX HM ACDELCO PF52E Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470220
07/25/17 04:46 PM
07/25/17 04:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Following.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470233
07/25/17 05:09 PM
07/25/17 05:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 18,623
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 18,623
Dallas,Tx USA
The oils that always are said to be "smooth and quiet" always have a lot of moly. I've also read here on the forum that moly is an expensive additive. I prefer oils with moly.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W20

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470259
07/25/17 05:38 PM
07/25/17 05:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 81
Appalachia
Wurlitzer Offline
Wurlitzer  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 81
Appalachia
bump

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470260
07/25/17 05:39 PM
07/25/17 05:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Boron/moly additive packages are not alternatives to sodium. Moly is a friction modifier (and anti-wear at higher concentrations). Sodium is part of the detergent package.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470263
07/25/17 05:44 PM
07/25/17 05:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 508
Southern Indiana
Mantooth Offline
Mantooth  Offline
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Posts: 508
Southern Indiana
popcorn


'14 Durango AWD 3.6,(mine) Hav ProDS 5w30/Napa Gold
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Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470270
07/25/17 05:50 PM
07/25/17 05:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,411
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,411
Soviet State of Washington
A number of people here have mentioned that Valvoline runs very smooth and quiet. I've noticed this myself as well. Does it really matter what is in the package as long as it performs well?


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470282
07/25/17 06:01 PM
07/25/17 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 07/25/17 06:02 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470301
07/25/17 06:37 PM
07/25/17 06:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 466
burlington ,ontario, canada
ndfergy Offline
ndfergy  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 466
burlington ,ontario, canada
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


2015 Toyota Yaris 5spd Manual
Summer: Mobil Super 1000 10w30
Winter: Mobil Super 1000 5w30
OEM Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4470348
07/25/17 07:39 PM
07/25/17 07:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

I liked this paper. The problem is that it applies to that engine. You can't necessarily extrapolate that to your engine

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: ndfergy] #4470401
07/25/17 08:41 PM
07/25/17 08:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
bradtech Offline OP
bradtech  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
OK, USA
Good read thanks for the info. I run GTX HM in 2 of my 3 vehicles which last I checked has no moly or boron. Somehow I missed this article in research trying to compare the different oils and their add packs/detergents.

Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


17 Chevrolet Malibu 3k 5w30 AC Delco Full Syn
08 Hyundai Santa Fe 78k 5w20 GTX HM OEM Filter
93 Chevy S10 203k 10w30 GTX HM ACDELCO PF52E Filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4470462
07/25/17 09:45 PM
07/25/17 09:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,327
The Northeast
mclasser Offline
mclasser  Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,327
The Northeast
Followed.


2018 Hyundai Elantra VE -- 4K
2013 Honda Pilot EX-L 4WD -- 56K
2002 Honda Accord EX-L -- 211K

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bigj_16] #4470673
07/26/17 08:11 AM
07/26/17 08:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Here's an article Molakule wrote on sodium adds a number of years ago:

Alternative Detergents Sodium

In the article he mentions SDDC as a possible AW/EP compound with good friction modification that might appear chemically as sodium in UOA's

Whether this compound is used with MS5K, Valvoline et al is anybody's guess but in the absence of other more popular FM's to help achieve GF-5 targets I'm of the mind that's the case.


Very interesting...thanks to you for posting and to Molakule for writing it!
That's one of the things about working with limited information, I don't know if the sodium I see in some VOAs is from detergents or from other types of oil additives...and, I don't know if it's just sodium-based detergents that can affect LSPI, or other sodium compounds, too. Given that sodium does not appear to be a necessary component in a modern motor oil, I just try to avoid it for now. I guess that if I see that an oil with sodium has passed dexos1 Gen 2 (or GF6, whenever that gets going) with an LSPI test, I feel that I can have some confidence that it's still a good choice for my DIT engine.

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Infineum reported that one of their studies indicated that sodium based detergents were LSPI accelerants in DIT engines when used in combination with calcium based detergents (magnesium based detergents were found to be LSPI neutral).

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

I liked this paper. The problem is that it applies to that engine. You can't necessarily extrapolate that to your engine


Good point, but I'm probably going to be waiting for a long time to see test results in my particular 2.0l Subie DIT engine. I try to make the best decision I can with limited information...I was aware of and considering LSPI in my oil choices before my car was recalled for it, but that's what really got me thinking that I had to take it seriously as a real world problem and not some sort of unrealistic lab creation.


2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4471007
07/26/17 01:09 PM
07/26/17 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 677
New England
jdavis Offline
jdavis  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 677
New England
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi

I guess that if I see that an oil with sodium has passed dexos1 Gen 2 (or GF6, whenever that gets going) with an LSPI test, I feel that I can have some confidence that it's still a good choice for my DIT engine.



There's already a number of Valvoline (and Napa) oils with sodium that are dexo1s Gen 2 approved as far as I know..

Re: Boron/Moly add packs vs sodium [Re: bradtech] #4471232
07/26/17 05:33 PM
07/26/17 05:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,008
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,008
OH
It should be noted that sodium and moly are not mutually exclusive in add packs.
Valvoline Maxlife uses Valvoline's classic sodium add pack but also featured moly until the
most recent reformulation.
Valvoline's API oils seem as smooth as anything else in those applications in which I've tried them
and we have a real engine builder here who has written that he sees unusually clean internals as well
as very low wear in engines that he's torn down that had been run on Valvoline oils.
There are many different routes to the same end.


17 Forester 12K MSS 0W-20
12 Accord LX 92K PP 5W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
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