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Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? #4467652
07/23/17 01:48 AM
07/23/17 01:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
Panos Offline OP
Panos  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
This post is from another thread concerning a topic which I read a lot about in this forum.I have read many times about people who claim their shifting quality went bad after 500 or 2000 miles because of their shared sump oil degradation.I was ready to start a topic to discuss the matter but this post was an excellent starting point for me.I did not want to ruin the existing thread so I decided to start a clean one specifically to this matter

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3340155/2

Originally Posted By: slomo
There's more to harsh shifting than oils. Try cleaning, lubing and adjusting your CHAIN. This is where you get notchy shifts from.

1.Take charcoal lighter fluid and a red rag. Wipe the chain and sprockets down surgically.

2.Adjust chain slack per owners manual. Rotate wheel around and check for proper slack again.

3.Mix #2 grease and 80W90 gear oil. Apply to chain with a small brush. Rotate wheel for full coverage.

Better yet, remove the chain from your bike. Place in a metal can with some kerosene or diesel. Soak and brush it clean with a nylon brush. Reinstall and lube the snot out of it.

slomo


that is absolutely 100% correct.
I ride 2 motorcycles (see signature) for 80.000km+ and 8 years
I am not having short ocis ever.
Right now I only have a Uoa from the honda after 6000km of use. Viscosity dropped from 30 to 20 (motul 7100 10w30). On my Kawasaki I use motul 5100 10w40 (from new till today with 63000kms).6000km ocis from new.will do its first uoa soon.i expect it to have dropped almost certainly 2 grades.
I have never ever experienced a difference in shifting gears all those years that were not related to the lubing and wear condition of the chain! Not once. And when I did have some harshness, after careful cleaning and lubing (I prefer gear oil for the last 3 years) any harshness was gone the very first gear change.
So either motul oils work perfectly on my shared sump motorcycles (having absolutely no difference before and after an oil change) all those years or some folks just do not pay much attention to the chain lubrication and condition matter in my opinion.
Please write your comments.


Ford fiesta 1.6 mk6 Motul specific 913D/Motul Gear 300
Kawasaki ninja 250r Motul 5100 10w40
Honda cbr600f Pc41 Motul 7100 10w30
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467658
07/23/17 02:12 AM
07/23/17 02:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
I'm inclined to agree.

I often see my fellow motorcyclists describe shifting as notchy on a worn oil, but I have yet to find someone adequately explain just what "notchy" is.

To elaborate - If we're talking about any modern shared sump motorcycle engine, then the transmission design is fairly standard. Like any transmission, shifting gears means the shift forks move around and mesh different sets of gears.

But what is largely felt when shifting on a motorcycle, is action between the shift star and its related components. The following picture shows the star, with the current position as "neutral" (the only star point that has a cut out).



Each click up or down is felt as the roller bearing traveling over the star point and into the next low point.

So the term "notchy" doesn't quite make sense to me.

On a related note, I will say that shift feel can vary greatly depending on engine RPM. On most modern bikes, you will find that it is considerably easier to shift up and down when engine RPMs are high.

Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467660
07/23/17 02:18 AM
07/23/17 02:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,209
The Canyons
02SE Offline
02SE  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,209
The Canyons
I've been riding chain driven shared-sump Motorcycles for 42 years. I know how to clean, lube, and properly adjust a chain. A neglected chain can absolutely contribute to drivetrain slop and poor shifting. As can worn cush drive rubbers.

I've tried pretty much every oil I could find over the years. Some oils DO result in notchy shifting sooner than others. Even with a properly cleaned, lubed, and adjusted chain that has no seized pins.

Unsurprisingly to me you have had good service from Motul. My favorite oil with which I have never experienced notchy shifting even at extended drain intervals, is Motul 300V 4T.

Last edited by 02SE; 07/23/17 02:21 AM.
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467699
07/23/17 05:32 AM
07/23/17 05:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
Panos Offline OP
Panos  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
All I want to state about this matter from a pretty long riding experience is that a worn chain (uneven tension,partly stuck links) and/or absence of frequent lubing (I am not saying neglected chain but lubed at least every 400 miles and after rainy weather) of a clean chain with the proper tension (or slightly relaxed) WILL AND PERSONALLY HAVE given me very noticeable "shifting smoothness deterioration" (is that the "notchy" thing) specially in neutral to 1st gear and 1st to 2nd in addition to the greater drag (quite noticeable on the 249cc ninja with its low torque output).
So, first of all let everyone be sure that the chain is in top condition before he gets to feel how the transmission smoothnes goes.
I have seen so many dry dirty and worn chains in the streets by fellow riders that I am pretty convinced that many riders may have a false opinion about their engine oil performance in their gearbox just because they forget the importance of the chain condition and lack the knowledge of the topic.


Ford fiesta 1.6 mk6 Motul specific 913D/Motul Gear 300
Kawasaki ninja 250r Motul 5100 10w40
Honda cbr600f Pc41 Motul 7100 10w30
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467754
07/23/17 07:04 AM
07/23/17 07:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,340
Midwest USA
LoneRanger Offline
LoneRanger  Offline
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,340
Midwest USA
What if it's a shaft driven bike or belt driven?



'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QS HM 5W30)
'16 Moto Guzzi Stelvio 1200 .....(ENI i-Ride PG 10W60)
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: LoneRanger] #4467760
07/23/17 07:15 AM
07/23/17 07:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,564
South Carolina
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
What if it's a shaft driven bike or belt driven?


My thought exactly when I read this earlier ... no question in a shared sump bike, for many people you do feel a change in shift quality after 1500 miles or so. Doesnt matter the drive train, chain, shaft, belt.
I personally had a bike with a belt and another with a shaft but shared sump metrics, one a Suzuki and one a Yamaha, same deal, over time you feel the loss of shift quality. Ironically with those two bikes I found cheap Valvoline 4 stroke motorcycle oil $4 a quart in Walmart held up the best! *L*


14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467781
07/23/17 07:37 AM
07/23/17 07:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,602
New England
Jarlaxle Offline
Jarlaxle  Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,602
New England
My wife describes the shift feel of her Honda as "perfect", even with >3K on the oil. 92,000 miles on the bike, oil is whatever 15W-40 was on sale at Walmart!


1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, winter storage frown
2011 Crown Vic P71, 5W-20 Super Tech, Super Tech
2011 Sportster 883, winter storage frown
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Reddy45] #4467851
07/23/17 09:03 AM
07/23/17 09:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
jeff78 Offline
jeff78  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
Originally Posted By: Reddy45

Each click up or down is felt as the roller bearing traveling over the star point and into the next low point.
So the term "notchy" doesn't quite make sense to me.


Notchy is when the next gear does not engage as smoothly as it should.

For the roller bearing to travel to the next point, the shift drum needs to rotate (the shift star/cam is mounted on the end of the drum), the shift forks need to move in their slots, the gears need to slide on the transmission shafts, and the gear dogs must engage. If any part of this gives resistances or is otherwise not smooth, you'll feel this at the shift lever. All of these components are lubricated by the engine oil.

An extreme example is when you can't shift at all - for example, if the gears are under load when you try to shift. Or if you've got badly bent shift forks that make it very difficult to shift.


Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467859
07/23/17 09:14 AM
07/23/17 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
jeff78 Offline
jeff78  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
Originally Posted By: Panos
So either motul oils work perfectly on my shared sump motorcycles (having absolutely no difference before and after an oil change) all those years or some folks just do not pay much attention to the chain lubrication and condition matter in my opinion.


I'd put money on the first one, but that is not to say that the second does not also occur.

Not sure if you can get Shell Rotella T6 in Greece, but this oil is known to shear quickly in shared sumps, with the resulting loss of shift quality.

What most of us observe is, when we simply change the oil, shifting improves noticeably back to where it should be. In that case, what does it have to do with the chain?

Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467869
07/23/17 09:27 AM
07/23/17 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
Panos Offline OP
Panos  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 74
Greece
There is no shell rotella in Greece.
I guess that motul oils do a perfect job concidering the gearbox operation in my case...
After all its the only brand I have used for 75000kms.
I have, however, used honda 4 stroke motorcycle 10w30 oil in my honda for the 1000 to 6000km interval. No difference whatsoever. Still totally smooth shifting from day one to the day I had the oil changed to motul 7100.
Some folks say notchyness in the gearbox comes as a result from the shearing and viscosity drop. This is not the case with my motorcycles. And I can assure you I am quite sensitive to hear or feel any changes on the operation of my vehicles.


Ford fiesta 1.6 mk6 Motul specific 913D/Motul Gear 300
Kawasaki ninja 250r Motul 5100 10w40
Honda cbr600f Pc41 Motul 7100 10w30
Re: Notchy shifting in shared sump.Engine oil related? [Re: Panos] #4467947
07/23/17 10:42 AM
07/23/17 10:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
jeff78 Offline
jeff78  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 172
New York
Originally Posted By: Panos
I guess that motul oils do a perfect job concidering the gearbox operation in my case...


Yes, Motul oils are generally excellent. Here in the United States, they're considered a more premium oil and the prices reflect that. I've used 7100 with very good results.


Quote:
I have, however, used honda 4 stroke motorcycle 10w30 oil in my honda for the 1000 to 6000km interval. No difference whatsoever. Still totally smooth shifting from day one to the day I had the oil changed to motul 7100.


It's possible that the Honda oil available to you is quite good and doesn't shear much. I haven't used it myself though. It's also possible (maybe even likely) that the Honda oil formulation varies from region to region since they do not blend their own oil, so the Honda 10W-30 here in the States might not be exactly the same as your Honda 10W-30.

Lots of variables, but if you find something that works well for you and lets you sleep well at night, stick with it.


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