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Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help #4462419
07/17/17 11:59 PM
07/17/17 11:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
G19Doug Offline OP
G19Doug  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
Hi,

I stumbled on this forum an I am amazed at how knowledgeable you guys are about oil. You were the independent opinion I was looking for and I hope you can help.

I own a small engineering company in the UK that produces parts for MX5s / Miatas. One of our biggest sellers are our turbo kits.
We have recently expanded and taken on a full-time mechanic as we realised there was a market for servicing MX5s and also fitting our own turbo conversions.

We really want to stock a single brand oil in the shop and I am struggling to get some independent views.
The engines we work on are 1600 and 1800cc gasoline IL4s. Naturally aspirated they have an output of 70-80 bhp per litre and when we turbo them we usually run 130-140 bhp per litre.
The stock oil is a 10w-40.

I have been using Castrol edge 0w-40 in all cars. However, when buying it in small quantities I have noticed the specs are slightly different on the back? One says A3 / B3 on the front, the other does not but says C3 in the blurb on the back? Are they the same oil?

Now I want to buy it buy the drum load I am looking around. Should I stick with Castrol edge or is there anything else worth using? What about something like the fully synth from Petronas?

Thanks in advance,

Doug.

Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462424
07/18/17 12:10 AM
07/18/17 12:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,174
Kuwait
Falcon_LS Offline
Falcon_LS  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,174
Kuwait
Petronas Syntium 7000 0W-40 is an excellent oil, if you can get it.

As far as alternatives go, can you get Motul 8100 X-MAX 10W-40 if you're dead set on a 10W-40? Granted, I think Motul Sport 5W-40 would be more along the lines of what you're looking for, as it is ester based, but I don't know if any of your applications use RTV seals on their oil pans, etc. Ester will do those no good. Perhaps 8100 X-CESS 5W-40 would be a better option, with a lot of OEM approvals including BMW LL-01 and MB Sheet 229.5. The 8100 Series is PAO based.


Petro-Canada Duron HP 15W-40 CK-4/SN
99 Explorer: H17W02
00 Pajero: XG9688
01 Grand Marquis: XG2
03 Expedition SSV: XG2
05 Envoy: XG9837
06 XJ8L: C2C41611
07 SRX: XG8765
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462433
07/18/17 12:43 AM
07/18/17 12:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
Castrol Magnatec 10W-40 Would be a solid choice, it's a semi synthetic oil however not a full synthetic, there aren't that many full synthetic 10W-40 oils.

ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4

API SL/CF

MEETS FIAT 9.55535-D2

MB-Approval 226.5/ 229.1

Renault RN 0700 / RN 0710

VW 501 01 / 505 00

Also approved by Mazda, don't know for what specific model however.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: Falcon_LS] #4462434
07/18/17 12:47 AM
07/18/17 12:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Petronas Syntium 7000 0W-40 is an excellent oil, if you can get it.

As far as alternatives go, can you get Motul 8100 X-MAX 10W-40 if you're dead set on a 10W-40? Granted, I think Motul Sport 5W-40 would be more along the lines of what you're looking for, as it is ester based, but I don't know if any of your applications use RTV seals on their oil pans, etc. Ester will do those no good. Perhaps 8100 X-CESS 5W-40 would be a better option, with a lot of OEM approvals including BMW LL-01 and MB Sheet 229.5. The 8100 Series is PAO based.

Yes the 8100 X-CESS would be a god choice.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462435
07/18/17 12:48 AM
07/18/17 12:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
Castrol Edge is good.

I like Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 A3/B4, it's a Full-SAPS oil and has all the good OEMs BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40.

So A3/B4 oils are full SAPS (sulphated ash) - the stuff that can clog an exhaust Cat or diesel DPF. Their typical Sulphated Ash (SA) level would be something like 1.2%. High SAPS oils tend to have a high TBN (total base number) to neutralise acid build up in the oil and so can last a long time.

The C3 oils are very similar but only mid-SAPS, so they protect the exhaust system a bit better if you are burning oil. Their typical SA level would be about 0.8%.

I like high SAPS oils, especially if you have high sulphur in your fuel which can degrade oil quickly. But Europe has very high fuel quality with low sulphur levels, so much less of a concern for you.

A high SAPS oils would be ACEA A3/B4 and have OEMs like BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40.
The low SAPS are C4 oils while the mid SAPS oil would be C3, these are all strong oils with a HTHS of 3.5 cP or more. The low and Mid SAPS oils would have OEMs like BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, Porsche C30.

For long oil change intervals, I prefer full SAPS (petrol), A3/B4.
To protect the CATS then I prefer mid SAPS (petrol), C3.
For a diesel car I prefer low SAPS, C4.

If you are running short oil change intervals (1 year & 10,000 miles or less), the a C3 is fine.
If you have a performance exhaust with no CATs, the A3/B4 is fine.
If you are doing long oil change intervals (2 years & 20,000 miles) then I prefer A3/B4.

This is a rough guide and a place to start thinking about things, there are cars and people that do different distances with different oils and are quite happy.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4462438
07/18/17 12:51 AM
07/18/17 12:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Castrol Magnatec 10W-40 Would be a solid choice, it's a semi synthetic oil however not a full synthetic, there aren't that many full synthetic 10W-40 oils.



Yes, I agree, not many full synthetic 10W40 oils, that grade is mostly semi-synthetic.

I think you are better with a full synthetic 40 grade oil for those turbo engines, in the form of a 0W40 or a 5W40.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462440
07/18/17 01:11 AM
07/18/17 01:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
G19Doug Offline OP
G19Doug  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
I am totally happy to go with a 0w-40. I doubt that 0w grade existed in 1989 when the released the first miata!

As long as I can sell the extra expense of a fully synth to my customers in terms of how much better it is for their engines.

Most of our customers have their cars as second cars and I would hope go for an annual oil change. Average mileage between oil changes perhaps, 5k.

On a low mileage service interval is there any advantage of the full SAPs oil?

Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462442
07/18/17 01:13 AM
07/18/17 01:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
G19Doug Offline OP
G19Doug  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
Also I forgot to say. Thanks for all your help.

Is there any published literature showing how much better a modern fully synth is over a mineral oil?

Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462443
07/18/17 01:23 AM
07/18/17 01:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
Originally Posted By: G19Doug
I am totally happy to go with a 0w-40. I doubt that 0w grade existed in 1989 when the released the first miata!

As long as I can sell the extra expense of a fully synth to my customers in terms of how much better it is for their engines.

Most of our customers have their cars as second cars and I would hope go for an annual oil change. Average mileage between oil changes perhaps, 5k.

On a low mileage service interval is there any advantage of the full SAPs oil?


Given this, a full synthetic 5W40 or 0W40 in either A3/B4 or C3. Any of the four combinations given will be fine, most use a C3 in Europe now days, from what I hear.

With low sulphur fuel and an annual 5k mile interval, no advantage to a A3/B4 oil.

Shop around and see the best deal you can get.

Last edited by SR5; 07/18/17 01:25 AM.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462445
07/18/17 01:43 AM
07/18/17 01:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
G19Doug Offline OP
G19Doug  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5
UK
I've just noticed I put 10w40 in the title instead of 0w-40. Doh!

Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462450
07/18/17 02:12 AM
07/18/17 02:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,654
Down Under
Then I would stay with the Castrol Edge 0w40, it's a good oil.
Either A3/B4 or C3, both are fine.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462490
07/18/17 05:28 AM
07/18/17 05:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,796
Balearic Islands , Spain
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 would certainly be a good choice.
Or just keep using the Castrol Edge 0W-40.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4462761
07/18/17 10:31 AM
07/18/17 10:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,655
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,655
Central Maryland
Please drop the 10w Winter spec for your request. The only way to meet that spec is to use more conventional oil and/or more Viscosity Index Improvers.

If you want good synthetic oil, buy a good Group IV synthetic oil, and not Group III loaded with VII's. Get a Group IV 0w-40 and let your oil be all it can be. You're not doing any engine any favours by specifying an inferior oil just to meet some preconceived notions or nostalgia about oils that start with 10w-.


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4463548
07/19/17 04:42 AM
07/19/17 04:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,171
Australia
supercity Offline
supercity  Offline
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,171
Australia
Edge 0w-40 is available in 2 flavours

Edge 0w-40 A3/A4 - Full saps
Edge 0w-40 - Mid Saps (meets C3)

Both meet API SN, both will work great. I wouldn't bother looking for an alternative.

Re: Which fully synth 10w-40 for our shop? Please help [Re: G19Doug] #4464163
07/19/17 03:20 PM
07/19/17 03:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,432
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,432
Los Angeles, California
With European (ACEA) oils, don't worry about the viscosity. Choose oil based on the spec. That's because the spec also dictates the viscosity.

Refer to various online databases provided by Mobil, Castrol, etc. on required specs to find the correct oil.

At the minimum you need to stock on the following. Brand name or synthetic/conventional doesn't matter as long as they are certified for the spec.

A3/B4 (thick, high-SAPS)
A5/B5 (thin, high-SAPS)

C3 (thick, mid-SAPS)

Depending on customer needs, also may be needed:

C1 (thin, low-SAPS)
C2 (thin, mid-SAPS)
C4 (thick, low-SAPS, mid-phosphorus [mid-ZDDP])
C5 (very thin, mid-SAPS)

Here SAPS refers to the amount of additives in the oil. Lower amounts of additives help prevent additive-caused fouling in modern engines that specify them.

Note that in addition to these specs, OEMs like BMW, MB, VW, etc. may require their own certifications. You may want to buy oils that carry as many OEM certifications as possible in addition to the base ACEA certifications on which the OEM specs are based on.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 271,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (© 2015 reformulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
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