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#4460925 - 07/16/17 12:51 PM Torque Management
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 11963
Loc: NH
Nick's comments about the GM 5.3 being "gutless" (at least off the line) reminded me of something: torque management. I recall the 5.3 getting some flack from the 5.7 guys who claimed the 5.7 had more low end torque; but it appears that GM upped the TQM at some point with the 4L60/65. [I also recall some guys turning it off, via tuners.] Some poking around (see this thread ) indicates the 4L65 was 380ft-lb input torque and 680ft-lb output. In 1st gear (3:1) that means less than 230 peak allowed; that can be what, 25% reduction on the early 5.3's, and a third on the later ones?

Novak indicates the later 6L80 is 440 max input and 664 max output. Torque management still has to be used (although the 2:1 second gear probably near-full torque once in second). [The 6L90 allows 885 max output.]

Strikes me as odd, but it probably makes some sense: once past a certain torque output, a truck (or even SUV) becomes traction limited. Other driveline parts might not be rated for much more toque. And once out of first gear, full torque is allowed.

So I guess my question is: do the other transmission makers (Ford, ZF, etc) have similar limitations, where max input torque can exceed max output torque when in first gear?

[Heck--I almost forgot--a torque convertor can get upwards of 2:1 torque multiplication. That's not near max torque of the engine, but it's gotta be a factor too.]
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2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 143k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 183k, his

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#4460932 - 07/16/17 12:58 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36452
Loc: Ontario, Canada
IIRC, the Ford 5R110 behind the 6.0L PSD would do full power upshifts, and that's a 600lb-ft of torque engine. My buddy Jon's with a tuner would pull like a bloody freight train. Mind you, I think the 5R110 was in a whole other league when compared to the transmissions we are discussing, as it dwarfed the 4R75W gasser trans in size.

I THINK the 4R100 was the same way, but don't hold me to that, as I'm going by memory.

I know there's definitely some torque management going on in my GC with the ZF 8spd.
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#4461134 - 07/16/17 06:27 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
oldhp Offline


Registered: 06/28/12
Posts: 1626
Loc: USA
To me anything controlled by a ECU is going to be held back so not to damage the drive train. My R/T 6 speed Challenger is the perfect example. It has the skip shift feature, 1st to 4th. 4th gear at 21 MPH and you floor it. All that happens is it slowly accelerates, no pinging, no bucking, no jumping, nothing except a slow RPM crawl up to 5500RPM. From a rolling crawl in first and you stomp it, it'll start to kinda spin tires and start making engine growling noise as it accelerates. Turn off the traction control and the tires go up in smoke almost instantly. Stock ECU's will control torque so one does not injure the drive train. Cheers2
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#4461140 - 07/16/17 06:34 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 10111
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I think part of it is GM's stupid electronic throttle bodies that came out with the 5.3L, slow and unresponsive.

My 5.7L had a throttle cable and it was instantaneous throttle response. Low end power for days, could be the fastest one across the intersection at around 2,200 RPMs

The 5.3L Silverado and Tahoe in the family couldn't chirp the tires even on a turn if you tried. It's like they're still asleep when mashing on the throttle and 1st gear is a mile long.
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#4461150 - 07/16/17 06:47 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
JBinTX30 Offline


Registered: 09/08/14
Posts: 476
Loc: Texas
A tune would fix the 5.3L issues no problem lol.

A tune sure did make a difference on the Trailblazer. Nice crisps shifts. Instant throttle response, not even the same vehicle.

More MPG and more instant power.. its a win win.

And of course no speed limiter laugh

If you have a vehicle on this LIST he does them for $149.
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#4461364 - 07/17/17 12:50 AM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
GMBoy Offline


Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 7702
Loc: Texas
I did the Diablo Sport tune on my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali with the 6.0L. I reduced the Torque management but didn't completely eliminate it. Made a night/day difference and the truck is more responsive. I chose not to completely eliminate TM because the truck is AWD (60/40 split until another axle needs more than it can transfer as much as 100% to a slipping axle) and traction is very good and I don't want to break anything under hard launches lol.


Edited by GMBoy (07/17/17 12:51 AM)

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#4461379 - 07/17/17 03:21 AM Re: Torque Management [Re: GMBoy]
SnowDrifter Offline


Registered: 08/24/14
Posts: 391
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I did the Diablo Sport tune on my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali with the 6.0L. I reduced the Torque management but didn't completely eliminate it. Made a night/day difference and the truck is more responsive. I chose not to completely eliminate TM because the truck is AWD (60/40 split until another axle needs more than it can transfer as much as 100% to a slipping axle) and traction is very good and I don't want to break anything under hard launches lol.


I was under the impression torque management would only pull timing during shifts? It effects off the line too?

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#4461388 - 07/17/17 05:03 AM Re: Torque Management [Re: OVERKILL]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 18954
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
IIRC, the Ford 5R110 behind the 6.0L PSD would do full power upshifts, and that's a 600lb-ft of torque engine. My buddy Jon's with a tuner would pull like a bloody freight train. Mind you, I think the 5R110 was in a whole other league when compared to the transmissions we are discussing, as it dwarfed the 4R75W gasser trans in size.

I THINK the 4R100 was the same way, but don't hold me to that, as I'm going by memory.

I know there's definitely some torque management going on in my GC with the ZF 8spd.



Some? Our 14 RAM 5.7 won't even open the throttle until 3rd gear! TM reduces many parameters, not just timing, folks. Get rid of it at your own risk, you may affect certain driveline components adversely.

I have run an aftermarket tuner on my SRT8 for many years. Testing at track days revealed the car is no quicker at the strip but it sure is more fun to drive the car yourself...
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#4461658 - 07/17/17 11:19 AM Re: Torque Management [Re: SnowDrifter]
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 11963
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
I was under the impression torque management would only pull timing during shifts? It effects off the line too?


With drive by wire, it should be quite easy to simply not open throttle past a certain point (and to close it just before shifting). I'm sure they could play with more variables--but once they got control over that butterfly, I have to wonder if it simply got as easy as "reduce throttle by x% y milliseconds before shift".
_________________________
2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 162k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 143k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 183k, his

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#4461660 - 07/17/17 11:22 AM Re: Torque Management [Re: Nick1994]
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 11963
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I think part of it is GM's stupid electronic throttle bodies that came out with the 5.3L, slow and unresponsive.

My 5.7L had a throttle cable and it was instantaneous throttle response. Low end power for days, could be the fastest one across the intersection at around 2,200 RPMs

The 5.3L Silverado and Tahoe in the family couldn't chirp the tires even on a turn if you tried. It's like they're still asleep when mashing on the throttle and 1st gear is a mile long.


The 5.7's I think were more often available with deeper gearing? Maybe, maybe not. I guess it shows why rear end selection was such a big thing back then, and why it still is now, at least for GM--they give up a lot right off the line.

That said, once TQM came along, did 4L60's start lasting longer?
_________________________
2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 162k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 143k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 183k, his

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#4461786 - 07/17/17 01:03 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
jeepman3071 Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 4216
Loc: Storrs, Connecticut
Originally Posted By: supton

That said, once TQM came along, did 4L60's start lasting longer?


That is a good question. It would be interesting to see if they did.

As for drive by wire, I agree with Nick. The 5.3 V8s I have driven did feel gutless down low, considering the HP and TQ numbers those engines had. Drive by wire also seems to vary in responsiveness across brands.

My dad's 5.7L Hemi in the Jeep GC feels pretty responsive off the line, but is much smoother than my mom's 2011 Honda Fit. The Fit does not have much power or torque, but the throttle is initially very jerky. My GF's 2006 BMW is almost the opposite, the throttle pedal seems dead until halfway down then it begins to go. The car has plenty of power, but the lag is pretty apparent. I've heard it is better on manual and RWD models though.
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#4461956 - 07/17/17 03:27 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: SteveSRT8]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36452
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Some? Our 14 RAM 5.7 won't even open the throttle until 3rd gear!


OK, I was being generous, LOL!! grin
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2016 Grand Cherokee SRT

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#4462365 - 07/17/17 10:51 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: SnowDrifter]
GMBoy Offline


Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 7702
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I did the Diablo Sport tune on my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali with the 6.0L. I reduced the Torque management but didn't completely eliminate it. Made a night/day difference and the truck is more responsive. I chose not to completely eliminate TM because the truck is AWD (60/40 split until another axle needs more than it can transfer as much as 100% to a slipping axle) and traction is very good and I don't want to break anything under hard launches lol.


I was under the impression torque management would only pull timing during shifts? It effects off the line too?


Yes, TM is most noticeable off the line. You floor the pedal and there is a lag then a slow ramp up of power. This is to protect the driveline. It does, as you say, retard timing during shifts as well and this is also for a more smooth shift.

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#4463222 - 07/18/17 07:36 PM Re: Torque Management [Re: supton]
clinebarger Offline


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 1912
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Gearbox Torque rating is what the Carriers/Planets, Ring Gears, Shafts & other Hard Parts can handle. The Holding Members....Sprag, Roller Clutch, Frictions CANNOT....That is what the Input Torque rating is about.

4L60E & 4L65E have different ratings, Quoting 4L65E specs for a 5.3L application doesn't matter because GM never put 4L65E's behind 5.3L......Yes, I have heard the rumors about people special ordering them, But It's all talk 'til someone shows me a RPO sticker that list's both a 5.3L & a 4L65E.


Originally Posted By: supton

The 5.7's I think were more often available with deeper gearing? Maybe, maybe not. I guess it shows why rear end selection was such a big thing back then, and why it still is now, at least for GM--they give up a lot right off the line.

That said, once TQM came along, did 4L60's start lasting longer?


The 5.7L Vortec's have TQM as well....Just not as aggressive as the '03 & up 5.3L's. '99-'02 5.3L's have cable driven throttle bodies unless the truck has traction control which is generally reserved for higher end SUV's.

Both 5.7L & 5.3L trucks were available with 3.42, 3.73, & 4.11 gearing. Just about any 1/2 ton truck with 3.42's is going to feel doggy. Let's not forget that GMT400 trucks are lighter than GMT800 trucks especially a Crew Cab GMT800 4x4.
The 17" wheels & taller tires that came out in '03/'04 didn't help things!
The 5.3L was NOT the replacement for the 5.7L, The 6.0L was!! The 5.3L is the replacement for the 5.0L Vortec....At least originally when gas was a dollar a gallon.

The stock Ignition Timing Tables on LSx powered trucks are REALLY bad, It's tough to make power when you have little to NO timing advance at full throttle, This is where the improved drivability can be had without killing your drivetrain by turning off the Torque Management. Though I DO eliminate the TQM on my personal vehicles....I accept & know the risks involved.

Torque Management doesn't seem to affect 4L60E longevity....When paired to a stock 5.3L. The life-to-overhaul on 4L60E's is around 160,000 miles. A lot of them die from bearing failures & pump failures which has little to do with the power that is ran through them.

Stock 2004 5.3L Main High Octane Spark Table



Performance Tuned 5.3L Main High Octane Spark Table
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2001 Chevy Camaro L92/4L80E
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