0W Oil With Low NOACK?

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Engineering-wise, how many years away can we expect to see a light oil that has to stability of a heavier oil. Better MPG and better volatility resistance.
 
How low is low?
Edge 0W-30 is 8.3%.
M1 AFE 0W-20 is 9.5%.
Both of these seem pretty low.
 
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.
 
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250°C (482° Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250°C (482° Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.



Yes it's true the Noack test is run at 250°C for 1 hour but what's equally true is that your engine might maintain your bulk oil at 100°C for to 300 hours. Which do you think is the more severe condition for evaporative oil loss?

Also the Noack test blows cold air over the surface of a quiescent pot of oil for one hour. Your engine however constantly pushes hot blow-by gas through a very violently agitated oil sump for 300 hours. As the engine ages, the blow-by rate increases and gets hotter. Which is the more ideal condition for evaporation?

Lastly, any light-ends boiled off on the Noack test are simply condensed and thrown away. Any oil light-ends (however small) that's stripped out of your sump is routed through your PVC system and back to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil can, over time, cause real problems. Not everyone 'sees' the problems these deposits cause because no-one strips their engine down every few months just to looks at what pistons grooves look like or see how much deposit has laid down at the top of the cylinder. However you will notice the effect of said deposits if you stick an oil control ring and your oil consumption goes through the roof or if you crud up an EGR valve.

I'd agree that Noack isn't a big deal for all oils, all engines, all climates and particularly for drivers who change their car every three years. However if you run a 14.9% US Group II oil for several years, on an aging engine with low tension rings in a cold climate, then you can gets caught out when when you do, it IS a big deal!
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Truth. NOACK test is at 250°C (482° Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,


Correction...the ring lands are there almost permanently, not momentarily.

And the oil, on it's path around the engine, when it does get to these areas is there for periods of time of the order of 10s of seconds, so it clearly experiences those temperatures.

Papers are out there that describe measured chemical changes to the oil in the ring belt.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.
 
Last edited:
Ah boys, just buy nice used cars and trucks with real port injection and run them hard enough to put some fuel through them. They'll be clean enough for most of 200,000 miles
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe


Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).


Interesting.

This kind of makes the argument for a "catch can" in the PCV line a more valid one.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.
 
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.


That's interesting, our '02 Expedition had zero burn-off between runs of M1 0w-40 when I ran it
21.gif
The NOACK of the previous version of M1 0w-40 was 8.8%, which is quite low. Not sure what the new "FS" version is sporting in that department, but I believe it has to be below 10% to meet some of the approvals it has.

Also, I never cleaned the EGR passages and it had over 200,000 miles on it when we sold it.
 
The noack becomes significant if you have oil consumption issues. You are fortunate that your expedition did not consume oil atleast anything that wud alarm you. My expedition since new consumed oil especially on highway where the egr is on and i have lots of highway miles.
Pp 10w30 has resulted in close to zero oil consumption. So we will see. I have only recently discovered this oil after years on m1 diet.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
42


That's as good an answer as you're going to get


The ultimate answer to the ultimate question about life, the universe, and everything!!


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
How low is low?
Edge 0W-30 is 8.3%.
M1 AFE 0W-20 is 9.5%.
Both of these seem pretty low.


Right....

Speak2Mountain how low of a NOACK are we talking here? Amsoil 0w20 is 9.3 and the 0w30 is only 7.6; both well below the requirement.
 
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The noack becomes significant if you have oil consumption issues. You are fortunate that your expedition did not consume oil atleast anything that wud alarm you. My expedition since new consumed oil especially on highway where the egr is on and i have lots of highway miles.
Pp 10w30 has resulted in close to zero oil consumption. So we will see. I have only recently discovered this oil after years on m1 diet.


Comically, ours swilled AMSOIL AZO 0w-30 like a drunken sailor, but didn't consume anything on Mobil 1 oils, LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"


This is part of the reason for Low SAPS oils (especially in DI and DI-Diesel engines.) Low NOACK helps in the reduction in carbon soot/sludge build-up by limiting oil carry-over. Low ash is there to reduce deposits in the oil that is carried.

Regards
Jordan

P.S: That's why I now run Dexos2 and VW504/507 oils in all my cars.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The noack becomes significant if you have oil consumption issues. You are fortunate that your expedition did not consume oil atleast anything that wud alarm you. My expedition since new consumed oil especially on highway where the egr is on and i have lots of highway miles.
Pp 10w30 has resulted in close to zero oil consumption. So we will see. I have only recently discovered this oil after years on m1 diet.


Comically, ours swilled AMSOIL AZO 0w-30 like a drunken sailor, but didn't consume anything on Mobil 1 oils, LOL!


Sounds like your expe had taste for expensive brew.
I just give mine whatever i can get at WM in 5 qt jugs.

I am sticking with oils with low to close to no viscosity modifiers AND i can get them for around 15 bucks for 5 quarts after rebates. Now the rx7 has pp 10w30 in it also for the first time and initial results look favorable. Have not driven it much but if oil consumption is down on that one too then ... Ofcourse the rx7 will drink oil but how much ?
smile.gif
 
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