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#4460683 - 07/16/17 07:59 AM 0W Oil With Low NOACK?
Speak2Mountain Offline


Registered: 04/07/17
Posts: 352
Loc: Mississippi
Engineering-wise, how many years away can we expect to see a light oil that has to stability of a heavier oil. Better MPG and better volatility resistance.

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#4460685 - 07/16/17 08:00 AM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
SilverFusion2010 Offline


Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1671
Loc: Crawfordville FL
42


That's as good an answer as you're going to get
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2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30

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#4460706 - 07/16/17 08:27 AM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15843
Loc: OH
How low is low?
Edge 0W-30 is 8.3%.
M1 AFE 0W-20 is 9.5%.
Both of these seem pretty low.
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17 Forester 12K MSS 0W-20
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96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
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#4460736 - 07/16/17 09:13 AM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 4755
Loc: MTL, CANADA
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.
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2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
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#4460765 - 07/16/17 09:54 AM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Rolla07]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6186
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4460990 - 07/16/17 02:27 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
AZjeff Offline


Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 2741
Loc: PV Az
With GDI low NOACK is something to seriously consider.
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#4461025 - 07/16/17 03:21 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 1052
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.



Yes it's true the Noack test is run at 250C for 1 hour but what's equally true is that your engine might maintain your bulk oil at 100C for to 300 hours. Which do you think is the more severe condition for evaporative oil loss?

Also the Noack test blows cold air over the surface of a quiescent pot of oil for one hour. Your engine however constantly pushes hot blow-by gas through a very violently agitated oil sump for 300 hours. As the engine ages, the blow-by rate increases and gets hotter. Which is the more ideal condition for evaporation?

Lastly, any light-ends boiled off on the Noack test are simply condensed and thrown away. Any oil light-ends (however small) that's stripped out of your sump is routed through your PVC system and back to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil can, over time, cause real problems. Not everyone 'sees' the problems these deposits cause because no-one strips their engine down every few months just to looks at what pistons grooves look like or see how much deposit has laid down at the top of the cylinder. However you will notice the effect of said deposits if you stick an oil control ring and your oil consumption goes through the roof or if you crud up an EGR valve.

I'd agree that Noack isn't a big deal for all oils, all engines, all climates and particularly for drivers who change their car every three years. However if you run a 14.9% US Group II oil for several years, on an aging engine with low tension rings in a cold climate, then you can gets caught out when when you do, it IS a big deal!

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#4461042 - 07/16/17 03:54 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 40195
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,


Correction...the ring lands are there almost permanently, not momentarily.

And the oil, on it's path around the engine, when it does get to these areas is there for periods of time of the order of 10s of seconds, so it clearly experiences those temperatures.

Papers are out there that describe measured chemical changes to the oil in the ring belt.

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#4461050 - 07/16/17 04:00 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
Nyogtha Offline


Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 2337
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 had a NOACK of 5.0% on the TDS from Pennzoil, but there was no Pennzoil Ultra 0W-20.
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"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen

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#4461053 - 07/16/17 04:05 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6186
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4461072 - 07/16/17 04:39 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 1052
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Edited by SonofJoe (07/16/17 04:39 PM)

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#4461313 - 07/16/17 10:44 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5625
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Ah boys, just buy nice used cars and trucks with real port injection and run them hard enough to put some fuel through them. They'll be clean enough for most of 200,000 miles smile
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Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4463789 - 07/19/17 09:58 AM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6186
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe


Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).


Interesting.

This kind of makes the argument for a "catch can" in the PCV line a more valid one.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4477482 - 08/02/17 02:08 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe]
merconvvv Offline


Registered: 07/10/16
Posts: 682
Loc: il usa
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.
_________________________
1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0

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#4477489 - 08/02/17 02:14 PM Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: merconvvv]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36603
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.


That's interesting, our '02 Expedition had zero burn-off between runs of M1 0w-40 when I ran it shrug The NOACK of the previous version of M1 0w-40 was 8.8%, which is quite low. Not sure what the new "FS" version is sporting in that department, but I believe it has to be below 10% to meet some of the approvals it has.

Also, I never cleaned the EGR passages and it had over 200,000 miles on it when we sold it.
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2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT

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