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0W Oil With Low NOACK? #4460683
07/16/17 07:59 AM
07/16/17 07:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 419
Mississippi
Speak2Mountain Offline OP
Speak2Mountain  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 419
Mississippi
Engineering-wise, how many years away can we expect to see a light oil that has to stability of a heavier oil. Better MPG and better volatility resistance.

Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4460685
07/16/17 08:00 AM
07/16/17 08:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,759
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,759
Crawfordville FL
42


That's as good an answer as you're going to get


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4460706
07/16/17 08:27 AM
07/16/17 08:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,124
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,124
OH
How low is low?
Edge 0W-30 is 8.3%.
M1 AFE 0W-20 is 9.5%.
Both of these seem pretty low.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4460736
07/16/17 09:13 AM
07/16/17 09:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,899
MTL, CANADA
Rolla07 Offline
Rolla07  Offline
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,899
MTL, CANADA
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
PP 0w20 & ST 4967

Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Rolla07] #4460765
07/16/17 09:54 AM
07/16/17 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4460990
07/16/17 02:27 PM
07/16/17 02:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,027
PV Az
AZjeff Offline
AZjeff  Offline
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,027
PV Az
With GDI low NOACK is something to seriously consider.


86 Samurai 1.3 leftovers
14 RAV4 2.5 5W-20 PP
16 Silverado 1500 4.3, DI, AFM 5W-30 PP

The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with someone else's life. - Frank Zappa

Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex] #4461025
07/16/17 03:21 PM
07/16/17 03:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,168
Europe
SonofJoe Online content
SonofJoe  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,168
Europe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Who cares about NOACK that much? Under 10% is pretty good. Not sure what difference you would even see if you had an oil with 5% vs 10% NOACK. Id say little if any.


Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,
- but if it really were a bigger problem,
we'd be seeing bigger problems from it.



Yes it's true the Noack test is run at 250C for 1 hour but what's equally true is that your engine might maintain your bulk oil at 100C for to 300 hours. Which do you think is the more severe condition for evaporative oil loss?

Also the Noack test blows cold air over the surface of a quiescent pot of oil for one hour. Your engine however constantly pushes hot blow-by gas through a very violently agitated oil sump for 300 hours. As the engine ages, the blow-by rate increases and gets hotter. Which is the more ideal condition for evaporation?

Lastly, any light-ends boiled off on the Noack test are simply condensed and thrown away. Any oil light-ends (however small) that's stripped out of your sump is routed through your PVC system and back to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil can, over time, cause real problems. Not everyone 'sees' the problems these deposits cause because no-one strips their engine down every few months just to looks at what pistons grooves look like or see how much deposit has laid down at the top of the cylinder. However you will notice the effect of said deposits if you stick an oil control ring and your oil consumption goes through the roof or if you crud up an EGR valve.

I'd agree that Noack isn't a big deal for all oils, all engines, all climates and particularly for drivers who change their car every three years. However if you run a 14.9% US Group II oil for several years, on an aging engine with low tension rings in a cold climate, then you can gets caught out when when you do, it IS a big deal!

Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex] #4461042
07/16/17 03:54 PM
07/16/17 03:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,220
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,220
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Truth. NOACK test is at 250C (482 Fahrenheit)

Yes, ring lands get that high momentarily,


Correction...the ring lands are there almost permanently, not momentarily.

And the oil, on it's path around the engine, when it does get to these areas is there for periods of time of the order of 10s of seconds, so it clearly experiences those temperatures.

Papers are out there that describe measured chemical changes to the oil in the ring belt.

Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4461050
07/16/17 04:00 PM
07/16/17 04:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,433
San Antonio, TX
Nyogtha Offline
Nyogtha  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,433
San Antonio, TX
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 had a NOACK of 5.0% on the TDS from Pennzoil, but there was no Pennzoil Ultra 0W-20.


"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe] #4461053
07/16/17 04:05 PM
07/16/17 04:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Linctex] #4461072
07/16/17 04:39 PM
07/16/17 04:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,168
Europe
SonofJoe Online content
SonofJoe  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,168
Europe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.

Last edited by SonofJoe; 07/16/17 04:39 PM.
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4461313
07/16/17 10:44 PM
07/16/17 10:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
Ah boys, just buy nice used cars and trucks with real port injection and run them hard enough to put some fuel through them. They'll be clean enough for most of 200,000 miles smile


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe] #4463789
07/19/17 09:58 AM
07/19/17 09:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe


Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).


Interesting.

This kind of makes the argument for a "catch can" in the PCV line a more valid one.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: SonofJoe] #4477482
08/02/17 02:08 PM
08/02/17 02:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline
merconvvv  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: 0W Oil With Low NOACK? [Re: merconvvv] #4477489
08/02/17 02:14 PM
08/02/17 02:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,507
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,507
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
.... any light-ends boiled off ..... to the cylinders to be burnt. The sticky deposits left behind from the incomplete combustion of oil


Has this claim been proven, or just speculation?

I equate "light ends" (especially in vapor form) to combust quite easily,
and any deposits are usually not "sticky"



Shannow has just put up a link to an obscure book called The Chemistry of Engine Combustion Deposits. You can find it on Page 4 of the 'High Noack Oils And Dirty EGR Valves' thread. It was written by a guy from Exxon called Lawrence Ebert (we must have overlapped but I don't ever recall meeting him).

Anyway this book is a real page turner! I so wish I'd known about this before because it confirms a lot of what I saw when I was playing with oils. If you want answers to your questions, have a read and make your own informed judgement as to whether it's all speculation or not.


Used to run a lot of m1 0w40 etc and burn quite a bit and sure enough the egr ports had to be cleaned on the expedition at 120k miles. Ofcourse most motorcrafts oil are around 14 percent noack and the dealers clean quit a bit of egr stuff.


That's interesting, our '02 Expedition had zero burn-off between runs of M1 0w-40 when I ran it shrug The NOACK of the previous version of M1 0w-40 was 8.8%, which is quite low. Not sure what the new "FS" version is sporting in that department, but I believe it has to be below 10% to meet some of the approvals it has.

Also, I never cleaned the EGR passages and it had over 200,000 miles on it when we sold it.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
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