Used Oil Color - Black-ish vs. Red/Orange-ish

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I run nearly the same oil in our two daily drivers. EDGE 0W-30 goes in the Mini and EDGE 0W-40 goes in my X5. Both oils are PAO based with essentially identical add-packs.

I've noticed the color of the oil (when checking the dipstick on a white cloth) is more black-ish in the Mini and more red-ish coming out of my X5. I've had the valve cover off of the Mini, and it looks like brand new cast aluminum (strict 5k oil change schedule since new). The X5 is near spotless, but if I really look in there with a flashlight, I can see a bit of orange/brown varnish on the aluminum casting (was on a 10k schedule until about 55k miles, been 5k since). Is this the source of the orangish oil color? Is the 0W-40 slowly cleaning it?

Both engines are similar in that they are gas, non-Turbo, port-injected, with BMW VANOS and Valvetronic, but with the X5 engine being 3 times the displacement.
 
When I came to this board with similar question - I was told that the reddish color of oil is the result of varnish clean up that takes place inside the engine.
 
+1 Its not from only under the valve cover but the pistons get a lot of varnish on them, when you see red its varnish being removed from the engines internals which is a good thing.
 
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
When I came to this board with similar question - I was told that the reddish color of oil is the result of varnish clean up that takes place inside the engine.


Originally Posted By: Trav
+1 Its not from only under the valve cover but the pistons get a lot of varnish on them, when you see red its varnish being removed from the engines internals which is a good thing.


Thanks. Sounds like the oil is doing its job cleaning. There's probably nothing to clean on the Mini engine, so all I'm seeing is the suspended soot.

Originally Posted By: Donald
Oil color might get your curiosity up, but no conclusions should come from oil color unless it's milky.

UOA is the only way.


Agreed. I'll be getting one next go around for both cars. Curious how well the oil holds up to our 90+% stop-go city driving with lots of elevation change.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Oil color might get your curiosity up, but no conclusions should come from oil color unless it's milky

UOA is the only way.


UOA is the only way to what?
 
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
The only way to see elemental PPMs...


The OP has given no indication that he's interested in elemental PPM's.

He's interested in why his oil looks red, and elemental PPM's are unlikely to be relevant (unless its rust).

I dunno enough about UOA's to say whether they'll give him clues on that, but I suspect not.

I THINK they sometimes do a centrifugation which might show up some sedimenting oxidation products which might be varnish precursors.

These can also show up on a millipore filter patch test, or even on a blotter spot test, if you can interpret it, but (a) I don't think these are part of standard UOA's, and (b) IIRC (don't have time to look it up now) varnish precursors are often in true solution, so may not show up by any of these methods.

Colour changes in true solution, which may be indicators of varnish formation or removal, are quantified by Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy, but that isn't provided by a standard UOA either.
 
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I'm currently having the same issue with my partner's VW Polo. Everything has an orange varnish to it and a few hundred miles after I've changed the oil it turns the same orange.


However, are you sure EDGE 0w40 is PAO based? If you look up the German label of 0w40 A3/B4 it says "HC-SYNSTHE" which I'm sure makes it a Group III oil. Not that I'm saying it's a bad oil!
 
Ducked, calibrate your sarcasm detector. I was agreeing with you on the applicability in this situation.

smile.gif

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
The only way to see elemental PPMs...


The OP has given no indication that he's interested in elemental PPM's.

He's interested in why his oil looks red, and elemental PPM's are unlikely to be relevant (unless its rust).

I dunno enough about UOA's to say whether they'll give him clues on that, but I suspect not.

I THINK they sometimes do a centrifugation which might show up some sedimenting oxidation products which might be varnish precursors.

These can also show up on a millipore filter patch test, or even on a blotter spot test, if you can interpret it, but (a) I don't think these are part of standard UOA's, and (b) IIRC (don't have time to look it up now) varnish precursors are often in true solution, so may not show up by any of these methods.

Colour changes in true solution, which may be indicators of varnish formation or removal, are quantified by Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy, but that isn't provided by a standard UOA either.
 
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
However, are you sure EDGE 0w40 is PAO based? If you look up the German label of 0w40 A3/B4 it says "HC-SYNSTHE" which I'm sure makes it a Group III oil. Not that I'm saying it's a bad oil!


According to this U.S. SDS from March 2017, it appears to be a PAO based oil.

Also, regarding your HC-Synsthe comment, EDGE 0W-40 on Amazon.de (Germany) says Vollsynth (fully synthetic).
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
According to this U.S. SDS from March 2017, it appears to be a PAO based oil.

Also, regarding your HC-Synsthe comment, EDGE 0W-40 on Amazon.de (Germany) says Vollsynth (fully synthetic).


I just translated some of the comments from the German Amazon page, and there were three from June 2017 stating that they received HC-Synsthe. However, I still believe what we have here in the U.S. is still PAO based on the most recent SDS sheet available. Maybe they rolled out a new formula to Germany first and it will be making its way here shortly...
 
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well, we actually need to know. I don't buy oils like this for any other reason that they are >50% PAO so they can be used as cleaners in an engine. If it's going to the marketing dept to sell just Group III, might as well look elsewhere ...
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
well, we actually need to know. I don't buy oils like this for any other reason that they are >50% PAO so they can be used as cleaners in an engine. If it's going to the marketing dept to sell just Group III, might as well look elsewhere ...


Based on the recent U.S. SDS I posted, I don't see how it's not a Group IV PAO based oil.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Actually PAO is probably one of the worst oils for cleaning...it's not a good solvent.


Not really an issue unless your really trying to de-sludge/varnish an old engine. For that I would probably choose PUP.

Now a PAO / GTL oil, that would be killer
cool.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Actually PAO is probably one of the worst oils for cleaning...it's not a good solvent.


My understanding/recollection from earlier discussion was that for solvency you should go the other way, with a low tech Group 1 oil.

That'd be another reason/excuse for my CPC SAE 40/ Delvac 15W/40 mix, if it'd been planned.
 
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Ducked, calibrate your sarcasm detector. I was agreeing with you on the applicability in this situation.

smile.gif



Calibrate your sarcasm delivery. Unless the signal is clear, it gets lost in the noise, S/N ratios being what they are.
 
I have found that changing the chemistry is the best way to slowly clean things. PAO is good at that. It is usually not what was in the motor before. Then switch it up to HDEO Group III, and keep moving. You will slowly clean stuff w/o stress on the motor.

Of course, if you have a sticky lifter or something, you need to get more aggressive, so Supertech and a big slug of BG109 (can't get KREEN shipped into Cali anymore
frown.gif
). But that is a different approach to cleaning ...
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I have found that changing the chemistry is the best way to slowly clean things. PAO is good at that. It is usually not what was in the motor before. Then switch it up to HDEO Group III, and keep moving. You will slowly clean stuff w/o stress on the motor.


I can work with that...

we find it in cooling water systems at work. CHANGE makes a difference in established behaviours.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Now a PAO / GTL oil, that would be killer
cool.gif



I don't know jack when it comes to this stuff, but SonofJoe recently said they don't make heavy GTL base stock.

So when I asked him how do they make GTL based Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 or Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 full synthetics, he suggested that they must use a heavy mPAO base with it.

I used SHU 5W40 once and it did seem to clean up my engine very nicely, from looking through the fill hole.
 
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