De-Sludge Procedures

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A friend of mine just got a vehicle, ex-rental with some engine sludge seen through the fill hole. Not hard sludge, but more of muddy look to it, not milky - we checked the coolant. Even if it needs a new engine - he still comes out under KBB value of the car.
Anyways, how about this scenario for a crankcase de-sludge procedure?
1) Drain the oil and put a Supertech oil filter on.
2) Fill the crankcase with proper capacity of ATF instead of oil (Supertech ATF is cheap enough to do this. Roughly the price of many engine flush additives anyways. But you get a gallon instead of a few oz.)
3) Run for 30 mins at 1500 RPM.
4) Drain the ATF and change the filter.
5) Fill with Castrol Magnatec 5w30 and oversized Fram Ultra for a 4k-5k OCI.
 
ATF has ZERO, ZAP, NADA in the way of additives and so nothing will be cleaned by using it. You are better off using a good engine flush or removing the valve covers and hosing the heads down with Berryman B-12 Chemtool, then performing a couple of short OCIs afterwards.
 
I wouldn't do any of that with ATF. That's a old wives tale.
Put in a good diesel oil with a SN rating like 10w30 Rotella or 5W40. Run some short oil change intervals. Marvel Mystery oil is Great for cleaning up Varnish but it may loosen that up too. Run 3 1000-1500 mile oil changes and monitor the results. After that go to a Good Quality Synthetic like Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum for the final Clean-Up for 3000 miles.
ATF is a terrible idea.
 
I'd do short OCIs with a cheap synthetic or maybe a diesel oil. Frequent filter changes too. If you dislodge too much, it's going to plug up the oil pickup screen and that will range from not-so-fun to catastrophic.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
ATF has ZERO, ZAP, NADA in the way of additives and so nothing will be cleaned by using it. You are better off using a good engine flush or removing the valve covers and hosing the heads down with Berryman B-12 Chemtool, then performing a couple of short OCIs afterwards.

ZERO additives, that show up on a VOA. That's the catch. Many testimonials available on engines becoming nearly spotless and varnish free after occasional substitute of 1qt of ATF instead of 1qt of oil. Also I remember seeing some filters cut up that were filled with sludge after ATF was added to oil, so it does clean something. But I've seen the C&P of the filter here before I became a member on BITOG, and unfortunately was unable to find that post/thread yet. If anyone knows the thread I'm talking about - link would be appreciated.
 
An old timer I used to work with used the atf method. He would just add 1 quart top off and drive for a few days before changing. Never heard of filling the sump with it. Seems risky.

Maybe just do a real short oci with a can of sea foam or some such in the sump, then another short oci after? Use an hdeo 10w30 for the extra detergency perhaps.

I wouldn't do anything too aggressive. Good oil and reasonable oci intervals will clean it up over time.
 
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
ATF has ZERO, ZAP, NADA in the way of additives and so nothing will be cleaned by using it. You are better off using a good engine flush or removing the valve covers and hosing the heads down with Berryman B-12 Chemtool, then performing a couple of short OCIs afterwards.
ZERO additives, that show up on a VOA. That's the catch. Many testimonials available on engines becoming nearly spotless ansd varnish free after occasional substitute of 1qt of ATF instead of 1qt of oil. Also I remember seeing some filters cut up that were filled with sludge after ATF was added to oil, so it does clean something. But I've seen the C&P of the filter here before I became a member on BITOG, and unfortunately was unable to find that post/thread yet.
Zero additives period.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Zero additives period.

I REALLY want to request the proof of such statements, but can't because I have a hard time finding that filter post myself, to back up my claims... But any helpful info is still greatly appreciated, if such available. Just no blanket statements please.
 
Sludge in the fill hole doesn't mean it's all over the place--isn't that the worst spot where it builds up?

If it's not that bad I'd just do some short OCI's, working out to where you want it to be at. Check the filter on these short changes, if nothing is showing up then why worry?
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
ATF has ZERO, ZAP, NADA in the way of additives and so nothing will be cleaned by using it. You are better off using a good engine flush or removing the valve covers and hosing the heads down with Berryman B-12 Chemtool, then performing a couple of short OCIs afterwards.
ZERO additives, that show up on a VOA. That's the catch. Many testimonials available on engines becoming nearly spotless ansd varnish free after occasional substitute of 1qt of ATF instead of 1qt of oil. Also I remember seeing some filters cut up that were filled with sludge after ATF was added to oil, so it does clean something. But I've seen the C&P of the filter here before I became a member on BITOG, and unfortunately was unable to find that post/thread yet.
Zero additives period.


2015_PSD,

I understand that ATF does not have additives such as detergents but seem to recall it has "dispersants" which were described to me as a cousin of a detergent.

Is this true?

Anyway, I was told it was this dispersant quality that resulted in ATFs ability to clean.

I am not supporting or recommending its use today with all of the advancements in motor oils (synthetics, etc) but 30 years ago adding a quart of ATF shortly before an oil change was a standard practice with many mechanics I knew. Wasn't there something about Marvel Mystery Oil being nothing more than an ATF is a special package?
 
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729268

From Quaker State;
" Myth #12

Adding a quart of ATF the day before an oil change will clean your engine. ATF added to the motor oil will clean the engine due to the high levels of detergent in ATF.

Fact
ATF does not contain detergent chemistry. ATF does contain dispersants, which have properties similar to detergents. But ATF is not formulated to withstand the combustion environment inside the engine. Quaker State® recommends that you keep the fluids where they belong: motor oil in the crankcase, and automatic transmission fluid in the transmission. "
 
I would not use ATF in the crankcase. But if you feel that it would help, then go for it and let us know if it works. I have used 5 min flush before without any issues
 
Originally Posted By: Vlad_the_Russian
A friend of mine just got a vehicle, ex-rental with some engine sludge seen through the fill hole. Not hard sludge, but more of muddy look to it, not milky - we checked the coolant. Even if it needs a new engine - he still comes out under KBB value of the car.
Anyways, how about this scenario for a crankcase de-sludge procedure?
1) Drain the oil and put a Supertech oil filter on.
2) Fill the crankcase with proper capacity of ATF instead of oil (Supertech ATF is cheap enough to do this. Roughly the price of many engine flush additives anyways. But you get a gallon instead of a few oz.)
3) Run for 30 mins at 1500 RPM.
4) Drain the ATF and change the filter.
5) Fill with Castrol Magnatec 5w30 and oversized Fram Ultra for a 4k-5k OCI.


Sounds like a great way to ruin an engine. Why not try a fast flush if you're looking for quick results?
 
Originally Posted By: beanoil
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729268

From Quaker State;
" Myth #12

Adding a quart of ATF the day before an oil change will clean your engine. ATF added to the motor oil will clean the engine due to the high levels of detergent in ATF.

Fact
ATF does not contain detergent chemistry. ATF does contain dispersants, which have properties similar to detergents. But ATF is not formulated to withstand the combustion environment inside the engine. Quaker State® recommends that you keep the fluids where they belong: motor oil in the crankcase, and automatic transmission fluid in the transmission. "


Ha!

Its nice to see there are still moments when I am still lucid.
smile.gif
 
Just fill it with urine.
The ammonia, urea and low pH in the urine will really clear out all the gunk in there.
If you eat a lot of salty food, that can increase the sodium content of the urine, which is also good for cleaning the engine.
Even better is if you take a lot of calcium supplements the day before you collect the urine, that will get a lot of calcium in the urine as well, again, will help with the cleaning.
If you want to thicken up the urine before using, find a diabetic, give them 3-4 bags of candy and don't let them have their insulin, in a day or so they will be peeing a very high sugar content urine, which will thicken it up (and if they go into keto-acidosis, that will lower the ph some even more in the urine, which again, will clean the engine even more).

Just make sure that your urine does not have any kidney stones in it, that would be bad.

Or you can use Coca-Cola



Both make as much sense as using ATF. ATF is not designed for ICE, it is designed for transmissions.
Do a bunch of short intervals with The cheapest ENGINE oil you can find, changing the filter frequently.

Or use Auto-Rx.
This stuff used to be talked about all the time here, and I have used it in the past per directions and it worked.
 
guys,

didn't TRAV posted a de-sludge procedure with steps and timming/times last month?

can somebody help me find the post?


P.S.1 i thought some guys also used MMO added 2-3 days before the oil change too (it is a light machine oil so it may "decrease" your oil "weight")
P.S.2 kreen? (please don't ban me)
P.S.3 i think somebody mentioned already Berryman (spelling?)
P.S.4 diesel to the brim, let stand (DO NOT START ENGINE; Actually DO NOT DO ANYTHING near the car) 2-4 hours, drain (extended time please), add and run cheap oil and filter for 20-30 minutes (NOT UNDER LOAD; you are just flushing the diesel out); add good package oil M1, etc etc and good filter for 2.5-5k miles (depends on your bbbehind-dyno/OCD)


P.S. to P.S. I forgot but what vehicle/car are we talking about?
 
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What kind of car/engine is it? That matters.

I'd never use straight ATF - 1 qt. at most, but if the oil level was on the dipstick when he got it and it runs alright, run 3-4 2,000 mi. changes with as many highway miles as possible. Also, maybe don't put any Seafoam in the crankcase until it's mostly cleaned up inside, but run a bottle through it with a full tank of good, higher octane fuel. It'll only help.
 
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OK, some oil is better than no oil. Good oil is better than garbage oil. ATF won't do it. Diesel might do it ... But why gamble?


Does the car run well? He obviously likes the car, or he would not have bought it ... Why do bad things to a good car?

What's the goal here? Just to remove some sludge that looks annoying ... The motor does not really know it's there. Metal lives in the dark. The only things that can see the sludge are you'all.

If it were me, I'd put in Super Tech synthetic oil, install the biggest filter that will fit (get an auto parts store like NAPA to look up interchange by thread) and add a full can of BG109 (now known as EPR).

KREEN from Kano Labs is a more aggressive cleaner and disolver, but that will have to be ordered. BG109 can be bought anywhere. run it for 3K and do it again. The synthetic base stocks need time a heat to get behind the goo. Ditto the BG 109. Just do this in the course of normal driving.

If you absolutely have to do this in the driveway, fill the motor to the brim (the fill hole) with diesel with one quart of oil. Run for 10 minutes at idle with a few easy RPM raises. Drain and then do the ST oil and BG109 thing and drive it.
 
Your plan is sound.

Another good cleaning regimen is 1/2 the crank with clean oil and then 1/2 kerosene or diesel. I have used this and then low rpm for 15/20 minutes as you suggest. This appears to be the main ingredient in many commercial motor flushes, and what many mechanics use to clean an engine when disassembled. I just cut out the middleman and buy a gallon of kerosene at the local fuel depot for five dollars. In the past, this was actually an MB factory recommended proceedure.

I use ATF as an engine cleaner regularly. I top up oil before a change periodically- about 1/2 qt or a bit more. No problem using more for a thorough cleaning. ATF is actually a lubricant about 10w on average, way safer from that perspective than the thinner kero based flushes.

From your description of what you are saying you were seeing sounds like contamination of the oil and not sludge. Sludge is gelling of the oil base, not discoloration. Sounds like testing the head gasket thoroughly again would be smart. At least a quick compression test across the cylinders, maybe you've done it?
 
OK. I just spoke to an old retired mechanic friend of mine and he said that ATF was a common method of cleaning sludge from an engine but that it had to be considered in historical context.

Back in the 1960's, motor oils did not have the quality of detergent additives they do today and store shelves were not stocked with 20+ different types of engine cleaners.

ATF was used because it worked and it most every mechanic back then used it. Atleast it was a common practice.

Fast forward, 50 years and there are far better products available and far better motor oils.

But old practices get passed along as folk wisdom and are out of context today.

Kerosene was also used by some guys.
 
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