Brake Flluid Color / Our Government at it's Finest

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Here is the email thread I began about the color of brake fluid. Does anyone think I got the runaround???
David Martin
Jul 11 2017, 04:05pm via System
Jack-
If you are curious about the history behind this regulation, you can read the entire history at www.regulations.gov
You'll find that the overwhelming percentage of Americans who offered comments were very much in favor of the regulation for a host of reasons they provided. Comments were made by auto industry officials, safety advocates, chemical engineers, and regular run-of-the mill citizens. Before any rule becomes final, Americans are given ample opportunity to voice their opinions on both sides of the issue.
Perhaps it is time to update this regulation, and if so, the process will again play itself and you will have a chance to write in why you would like to see the change.
For information on submitting an idea for auto part safety, please contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Office of Chief Counsel, Rulemaking Division at (202)366-2992 for information about the legal use of this device.

Additional information for new manufactures can be found at: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/maninfo

Anon
Jul 11 2017, 03:55pm via Email
David,

Please see attachment X71.116 Standard No. 116 (See S5.1.14).
Attached Files
• brake_fluid.pdf
• A5692D01C1BD4839B4DA2D146E522962.png

David Martin
Jul 11 2017, 03:23pm via System
We were not aware that there were any federal regulations enforced by the USDOT that dealt with brake fluid color. Can you give us the exact citation/regulation that you are referring to?


Original Question
Jul 08, 2017 via System
Brake Fluid Color
In line with President Trump's initiative to reduce unneeded regulations I request that the regulation requiring brake fluid to be "clear" be eliminated. I can think of no reason for it to exist. You used to be able to buy "clear" or "blue" brake fluid. This was useful when you flushed out the brake system because you could use the different color to see when the old fluid was gone. Can't do that anymore.



David W. Martin
Reference Librarian
National Transportation Library
Bureau of Transportation Statistics
Office of the Assistant Secretary for Research and Technology
U. S. Department of Transportation

This email is sent from USDOT Answers & FAQs in relationship to ticket id #2143559.
 
I've emailed DOT and got a response from David Martin before. (regarding GM disregarding standards and turning on reverse lights when the car is parked)

You lucked out and got something slightly more than a canned response.
 
I have ATE blue brake fluid. Don't remember where I bought it but I know it was online. If I remember I will post.
 
The law that banned blue brake fluid (FMVSS 116) dates back to 1972, a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time before Super Blue ever existed.

Also, the cans said DOT 4 on them, despite not actually meeting the standards due to being a color not permitted in that law from 1972. Had it not mentioned DOT 4 or FMVSS 116 at all, perhaps it might have been able to slide under the radar, or even if it said "for off-road use only". But illegal anything CANNOT say "meets federal standards except for..."

Nope, not permitted. If it doesn't meet the requirements, it cannot mention the requirements at all. The very most they could get away with is "DOES NOT meet FMVSS 116 standards", but even that is iffy.

And Super Blue stains the reservoir anyway.

New DOT 3/4/5.1 is clear or amber so you can tell it is new/fresh fluid (it gets darker as it goes bad)

Silicone DOT 5 is purple, so you can distinguish it from the non-silicone stuff since the two will not mix and will form a goop if mixed (and also, DOT 5 silicone cannot be used with ABS)
 
I recently found a can of super blue hanging out among some of my car supplies. Must be 10 years old. Given that it's sealed, would there be any problem using this for my next brake fluid flush in my infiniti?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MarcS
I recently found a can of super blue hanging out among some of my car supplies. Must be 10 years old. Given that it's sealed, would there be any problem using this for my next brake fluid flush in my infiniti?


I seriously doubt it.
 
The blue/amber "helps brake bleeding" was completely oversold, but it made for some good ad copy.

Super Blue started as a higher-performance "racing" fluid. When the non-dyed version became available, it eliminated any substantive reason for SB to exist.
 
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
The blue/amber "helps brake bleeding" was completely oversold, but it made for some good ad copy.

Super Blue started as a higher-performance "racing" fluid. When the non-dyed version became available, it eliminated any substantive reason for SB to exist.


Why do you feel the blue/red brake bleeding benefit is oversold?

I have a friend that used to have a Viper he raced regularly, and we always used Super Blue and ATE200 alternately, for brake fluid changes after a race. He said it made the job so much easier.

I have never got the chance, as Super Blue was pulled from the shelves literally weeks before I tried to order some for the first time.
 
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog


Silicone DOT 5 is purple, so you can distinguish it from the non-silicone stuff since the two will not mix and will form a goop if mixed (and also, DOT 5 silicone cannot be used with ABS)

Don't forget certain British cars use mineral oil for their brakes - dyed green and marked with a green triangle with an oil drop. Rolls-Royce and Bentley also uses a fortified DOT3 fluid with castor oil to lubricate the fluid pumps - all RR&B cars have a shared brake and suspension hydraulic system, hence the mineral oil/fortified fluid requirement.
 
Originally Posted By: MarcS
I recently found a can of super blue hanging out among some of my car supplies. Must be 10 years old. Given that it's sealed, would there be any problem using this for my next brake fluid flush in my infiniti?


It's a metal can, so it will be fine
smile.gif


nthach Don't forget certain British cars use mineral oil for their brakes - dyed green and marked with a green triangle with an oil drop. Rolls-Royce and Bentley also uses a fortified DOT3 fluid with castor oil to lubricate the fluid pumps - all RR&B cars have a shared brake and suspension hydraulic system said:
True, but there aren't really many of those in the US, and in most of those cases, they don't do the work themselves and go to a specialty shop or the dealer. And those who do know it's different than regular brake fluid

RR used the fortified DOT3 you describe in the 70s' it's called RR363. It can also be used in 60's Citroens that called for LHS. But RR and Citroen eventually switched to LHM, the green mineral oil
 
Originally Posted By: redbone3
In line with President Trump's initiative to reduce unneeded regulations I request that the regulation requiring brake fluid to be "clear" be eliminated.


Did you just invoke the president's name as if it were some magical incantation that would make blue brake fluid come back? Were you hoping that some government bureaucrat would say to himself "Gee, if Trump wants blue brake fluid, I guess it's OK...."?
crackmeup2.gif


Originally Posted By: redbone3
65684855.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: BHopkins

Why do you feel the blue/red brake bleeding benefit is oversold?


It might have been beneficial for the minority who refreshed their fluid after each event, where the short duty cycles made it harder to discern the old from the fresh fluid.

For everyone else, who follow schedules measured in annual increments, it's not especially difficult to tell when the old fluid has been displaced and fresh fluid is flowing out of the bleeder.

I first found SB back in ~'93 or so, and started to go back and forth between it and Valvoline's old Synpower, which was also an relatively inexpensive above-average DOT 4 (not counting expensive boutique fluids like SRF or similar), depending on whatever was readily available on hand (this was before Amazon and online commerce; you had to seek out SB at a parts place that catered to Euro cars).

As slacktide notes, it also had a tendency to "stain" the fluid reservoir. Despite siphoning out as much old fluid as possible prior to each flush, over multiple flushes, traces of the blue dye remained in the sectional pockets of the reservoir that would have been impossible to empty without removing it from the master cylinder. Given a short time to mix, it would then contaminate and discolor the fresh fluid. I still have that car I first tried SB in, and the reservoir is clear again, but only after many cycles.

Alternating between blue/gold sounded great in theory, but in practice, it was of little benefit for most people, especially when Typ 200 has identical performance.

I'm guessing the original reason Ate colored it blue was only to help differentiate it from their normal SL DOT 4. The rest was created by some creative copy writer to help make it an easier sell.

TLDR: not worth the hassle, for a minor tangible benefit. And if one cannot flush brakes properly without such an aid, they should probably not being messing around with them to begin with.

200 is a good fluid. I just rebuilt the 20+ year old calipers on that car, and they're in great shape.
 
Come up with an after market dye which can be put into the can by the consumer, make money and have any color you desire.

Just an idea

Smoky
 
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