Conservative condemnation limits

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Messages
4,727
Location
Austin, TX MSA
My 2012 Sonata, it has the 2.4 GDI engine, which has known issues with connecting rod bearings spinning and engines seizing. Both Sonata and Kia Optima models, as well as Santa Fe Sport and Sorento, are models affected. The problem also affects the 2.0 turbo engines of the same model vehicles.

Recall notices have been issued by the manufacturer and the government. What the ultimate recall action will be is still unknown, however, Hyundai has issued a warranty extension to 10 years/120K miles for the engine. I think Kia has gone one further and upped the coverage to 15 years unlimited miles for the particular defects people are seeing.

That said, people are waiting 2-3 months to get their engines replaced once they go. The long blocks are backordered and there is a waiting list. They will give you a loaner car while you're waiting however no guarantee of what it is - one guy on the Hyundai forum got an Accent, for example.

I would like to avoid this outcome until the manufacturer and government agree on the ultimate recall action on these engines. I don't want to be without my car for several months. So being a BITOGer I am switching from the recommended 5w20 (stamped on fill cap) to the allowed by owner's manual 5w30 and I will be doing analysis, just got my first sample yesterday evening and will be sending it to NAPA analysis. For the record, I put in 5 qts of M1 5w30, why, because my engine is DI and a magnesium heavy oil is supposed to be better for LSPI. Oh and it was sitting on my shelf already.

I plan to set some more conservative condemnation limits on it than I have with my past cars. These are the factors I am considering.

-Fuel dilution (Engine is DI): 3%? 5%? Ignore as long as wear numbers are good?
-TBN: change when TBN crosses TAN? or a certain number? 4.0? 3.0?
-Viscosity: Out of grade for 30wt? ( -Wear metals: Any bearing related wear metals above universal averages?
-Flash Point:
Any other factors you would consider for condemnation limits based on UOA?

Driving profile:
About 50 miles per day, long commute at mostly freeway speed, so this *should* be pretty easy on the oil. More mixed driving on the weekends.
 
I should add that, I still want to get good value from my oil change intervals. The factory severe service limit is 3750 and non-severe service 7500. I'm not going to be changing at 3750, unless the analysis calls for it.
 
If you're under warranty for a known engine problem, why are you going to use a non-spec oil? Run what they recommend until it blows up then let them fix it on their dime. I don't think there's any reason to believe that a heavier weight oil will help with a known engine defect.
 
Originally Posted By: MarcS
If you're under warranty for a known engine problem, why are you going to use a non-spec oil? Run what they recommend until it blows up then let them fix it on their dime. I don't think there's any reason to believe that a heavier weight oil will help with a known engine defect.


5w30 and 10w30 are specifically allowed in the owner's manual. 5w20 is recommended for best fuel economy.

Since I want best engine life and don't care about a minuscule decline in economy, I'm going with Xw30. In this case the M1 5w30 was just sitting in the stash.

The reason for the heavier oil is to avoid any fuel dilution situations on this DI motor. Don't need a 20wt shearing down to 5.xx cst on a motor known for bad connecting rod bearings.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CT8
What are we trying to do exactly?


Set a more conservative than normal condemnation limit then normal, in the process of doing UOA to determine OCI.
 
I don't know what you mean by condemnation limits. Are you transliterating Spanish to English with that term?
 
That means the limit at which one would decide to drain the oil and change it. i.e., the oil is condemned if XYZ parameter is out of range.
 
The slightly thicker oil will help cushion the bearings.

Do we know why the bearings are failing? Is it lugging loads that wipe the oil off and streak the bearings? Or, is it just bad machining?

M1 may be OK, now that it's not all PAO based ... The thing about synthetics is that they tend to exhibit lower surface tension (which helps them clean and gives the W rating a boost), but they can also exhibit drain-off. That is they loose some capillary fill over a few days.

Dino's are better at capillary fill. So they often wake-up quieter in the morning in most engines. So, after sitting for a few days, open the hood and listen to a cold start. If it rattles at all, I'd think about another oil. If it's quiet, you are good to go
smile.gif


I'd also use a Napa Gold filter. It's not quite as efficient as Fram Ultra, but it flows well with cold oil, and has a very good ADBV. Both are meaningful in getting oil to the bearings in a timely fashion.

I'd definitely let that motor idle for a few minutes before driving off. No hard acceleration until it has reached op temp. If it has sport mode for the tranny, I'd leave it there and not lay into the throttle above about 3,500.

The sport mode will delay the up-shifts (lower RPM loading) and the short throttle will reduce bearing velocity on the high side, so the rods will have the easiest time possible.

Should get you through if it can be done
smile.gif
 
Hyundai has given a couple of excuses, they said they the machining debris was not cleaned up properly and restricted oil flow. They then said the process was changed after the 2012 models, but then later expanded the recall to the 2013s and 2014s. At one point an Hyundai engineer flew to Washington D.C. and briefed federal officials on other shortcomings of the Theta II engines and said Hyundai was aware of the issues but had been less than forthright in reporting them. The feds have opened an investigation into the whole business but no word yet on where that will go.

https://consumerist.com/2017/05/22/feds-open-investigation-into-recall-of-1-6m-hyundai-kia-vehicles/

Anyway,

I held the door open this morning while starting it up and no noise. So far so good. I bought 2 cases of the Miles Synblend 5w30, so, the oil will be changing at the next interval at any rate.

I'm using the OEM filter, it has very good flow but is not that efficient.

I do let it idle a little longer than other cars I have had before taking off maybe 20-30 seconds but right now it's in the upper 70s when I leave for work at 6:45am so I think the oil is going to flow pretty well right off the bat. When it gets colder I may let it idle a bit longer. I don't want to let it idle too much and increase fuel dilution as it's DI.

I will tell my foot to turn off the sport mode...it's a 6 speed manual
wink.gif

I keep the shifts between 2000-2500 when it's cold, at any rate.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

I'd also use a Napa Gold filter. It's not quite as efficient as Fram Ultra, but it flows well with cold oil, and has a very good ADBV. Both are meaningful in getting oil to the bearings in a timely fashion.

Anecdotal evidence... I only used a Wix filter once, and that's the only time I experienced startup clatter on cold starts. I took it out last week and will cut it soon.
 
Yeah, anecdotal to about 50 odd years of tinkering and trying every filter out there. Can't count the cars and trucks on both hands with cold start noises that cleared up as soon as I swapped in a WIX, Napa Gold, or Baldwin filter w/o changing oil. My friends would no believe it when I said it would work, so I ate the cost and did it for their enlightenment.

I've unscrewed a lot of AC Delco, Purolator, No-Name, and house brand filters from noisy engines at cold start and put on one of my favs. Works nearly every time
smile.gif


But, your results may be different. Nothing's perfect and I have gotten one or two bad WIX in the last 30 odd years ... It happens. Have never had a bad Baldwin/Hastings filter though
smile.gif


I'm sure the Hyundai filter is good. Efficiency is not needed here. Machining debris is big enough to be caught be the worst filter in the world, as long as the media does not have a hole in it
laugh.gif


Millions of air-cooled VW bugs ran for ever with just a simple screen and no filter at all
laugh.gif
 
Last edited:
With your usage patterns and proposed mileage I would think the only thing you need to worry about will be Viscosity.
The other parameters won't become an issue with your proposed OCI even with the thinner oil before the vehicle falls apart around you and it's time to get rid of it.

Unless the engine proves unreasonable noisy on the thinner oil I would go with that.
And I'm not a thin oil type of person, but I can see the advantages of it in an engine that's proven to do well with the stuff.
That is unless one is planning to do a fair bit of towing.
 
Generally I'm all for using condemnation limits based on wear metals. But this is a special case; it's a known failure waiting to happen, or else they would not be offering engine replacements.

I guess the underlying question is this ...
Will altering or reducing condemnation limits achieve his goal? (That effect of delaying the impending doom so that he's not without a ride or a loaner he does not want.)
And beneath that is the question of whether an OCI can even cause the effect he seeks? Or will the engine initiate it's self-destruct sequence regardless of the OCI plan?

Just as a total SWAG here, use the 5w-30 and cut the OEM OCI in half. I have no data to prove this would be useful or not; we're in uncharted territory here. I don't know that a syn is needed; cutting the OCI in half is super-conservative. Syns don't really help in terms of fuel dilution. Pick a decent 5w-30 dino and OFCI more often, until the engine replaced. That will help offset the more frequent OCIs in terms of costs.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Just as a total SWAG here, use the 5w-30 and cut the OEM OCI in half.

Yep, the OEM severe service intervals are short, so if one is looking at following their advice and their warranty regime, that might be best. Go severe service and don't worry.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally I'm all for using condemnation limits based on wear metals. But this is a special case; it's a known failure waiting to happen, or else they would not be offering engine replacements.

I guess the underlying question is this ...
Will altering or reducing condemnation limits achieve his goal? (That effect of delaying the impending doom so that he's not without a ride or a loaner he does not want.)
And beneath that is the question of whether an OCI can even cause the effect he seeks? Or will the engine initiate it's self-destruct sequence regardless of the OCI plan?

Just as a total SWAG here, use the 5w-30 and cut the OEM OCI in half. I have no data to prove this would be useful or not; we're in uncharted territory here. I don't know that a syn is needed; cutting the OCI in half is super-conservative. Syns don't really help in terms of fuel dilution. Pick a decent 5w-30 dino and OFCI more often, until the engine replaced. That will help offset the more frequent OCIs in terms of costs.


The OEM severe service OCI is 3750, I don't think I'm going to cut that in half. That seems excessive. At worst I hope the oil is still in decent shape at this interval.

I've now drained the dealer bulk and have M1 5w30 in it as well as another OEM filter on it. I have cheaper oil coming though, the MileSyn blend, also in 5w30. I got it for $30 for 24 quarts so that ought to hold me over for a bit. I have some NAPA Synthetic in my stash as well.

The engine sounds noticeably quieter with the 5w30 in it vs 5w20, as did the Kia Rondo (with the same engine in non-DI) before it. Mileage is about the same, I've always gotten between 28 and 30 mpg with this car in the short time I've had it. Probably 70% highway usage cycle.
 
It's not just the fact that I don't want to be without my ride.

There is a factor of curiosity in all this of, just how long can I make the original engine last through just customizing my oil type and OCI based on analysis? I bought this car knowing about the engine problems already for the model in general, it was very inexpensive and I like driving it. I could have gotten a new one, supposedly the 2015+ don't have the same problems and they have big big rebates on them right now, like a Sport 2.0 Turbo for $18K and change that originally stickered for like $26K. But I felt like I could get better value out of this used one for the $7500 I paid for it, which at the time was $2000 under the Kbb.com private party transaction price in very good condition. Plus they do not make them in manual anymore and I felt like this might be my last chance to have a manual car ever.

I suppose one could never know if it's predetermined to fail or not, it could be for all I know that this particular engine would run to 300K on Dollar General 5w20 and OCOD Frams at non-severe 7500 OCI. There's no way to quantify just exactly how much an obsessive maintenance regime impacted engine life without another identical car driven the identical way on a different maintenance regime.

But this is BITOG, and it's fun, right? Otherwise we'd turn off our computers and find something else to do.
 
I own a 2013 Sonata and it currently has 25600 miles. It is driven 99% highway.

When I bought it new I did notice that the engine was a little on the noisy side. The first oil change was done at 4800 miles and I used Mobil 1 0W20 AFE (the same oil I use in my 2012 Honda). The first thing I noticed is that the engine is less noisy. In fact my 2010 Toyota (Mobil 1 5W30) is actually louder.

The only oil used in the Sonata is Mobil 1 0W20 AFE and I have not seen any evidence of fuel dilution (two UOA done). But my thinking is that if there is a flow problem, won't the 0W20 flow better that the 5W30. Isn't viscosity resistance to flow? Why would I want to increase viscosity, for added protection????

When Penzoil was ask about protection and a 0W20 vs a 5W30 their answer was
Unless you are operating significantly harder than a normal duty cycle it is unlikely you will see any benefit. Significantly harder duty might mean a very high proportion of long idle time followed by sudden high speed accelerations (common in police duty as an example) or a harsh environment with lots of sand and dust (abrasive agents). In summary you’d need to push an engine a lot harder to see a benefit.
Found here on this site at https://bobistheoilguy.com/lower-viscosity-grades-round-3/

I just had Campaign 162 performed on my car and an oil change is included as part of the inspection.

Campaign 162 Test Procedure

Stick probe in the dipstick tube,, plug other end into tablet

Enter data, verify test criteria met

Run engine at 2000 - 3000 rpm for 30 second via test prompt

Run engine 1900 - 2100 and hold as it pull 3 test cycles

Idle engine while it run 3 test cycle

When complete, you win a PASS,, RETEST,, or FAIL

Hit the "FINISH" tab to upload result to Hyundai

Change engine oil and install orange dipstick



I did inform the service manager that an oil change would NOT be performed on my car unless Mobil 1 0W20 is used. He stated "no problem" and ordered 5 quarts from a local store. Later he did state that he only uses Quaker State 0W20 ultimate durability in his 2012 Sonata.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that a higher viscosity oil will protect my engine better. In Fact I believe that in my case the 0W20 does an exceptional job

My 10 cent worth
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top