Synthetic oils cause more cylinder wear?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FCD

Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
4,062
Location
Mallorca, Balearic Islands, Spain
So yesterday i was going back and forth with a really reputable engine builder on Facebook, the guy is a very experienced engine builder who specialises in building very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engines, he's been building them since the 90s and he said to me that he noticed the engines that had been run on full synthetic oils had more cylinder wear, despite being cleaner and having less Turbo issues.
I was really surprised with what he said, what do you think?
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
So yesterday i was going back and forth with a really reputable engine builder on Facebook, the guy is a very experienced engine builder who specialises in building very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engines, he's been building them since the 90s and he said to me that he noticed the engines that had been run on full synthetic oils had more cylinder wear, despite being cleaner and having less Turbo issues.
I was really surprised with what he said, what do you think?

In the context of oil film thickness, I agree with him.
blush.gif
 
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?

That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.

I suspect it's anecdotal.
 
Last edited:
There have been discussions in the past that synthetic oil does not allow the rings to properly wear-in so they provide proper sealing and proper compression.

But I believe this is mainly in rebuilt engines as those shops do not have the super expensive machines for engine manufacture that the auto makers do.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think any "very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engine" is going to see wear escalated over what most of us would see as "normal". I am not convinced he's wrong or right, but I'd have to see his data. I presume he measures a lot of clearances, but can he show the data as a controlling input? Does the output (high cylinder wear) signal with the input of oil base stock?

That market (highly modded Cologne V-6) is a niche within a niche within a niche ... Not a lot of data to observe for contrast. Nothing I can find anyway.

I suspect it's anecdotal.

Well what you know in the US as the Merkur Xr4ti, in the UK and Europe is called Sierra, some of these Sierras had 2.8 and 2.9 Ford Cologne V6 engines, and there is a company called Turbo Technics in the UK that has been Turbocharging these for over 30 years now, he specifically specialises in those Turbo Techincs Sierras, they range from 200-400 Hp for the 2.8 Mfi Cologne up to even 500+ Hp for the most wild 2.9 Efi versions, which is a lot for a pushrod Cologne V6 indeed.

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.
I don't think he is lying, why would he? just that i find it interesting that he is finding more cylinder wear on engines run on full synthetic oils.
 
Most all engines in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, Drifting, American LeMans, All sport car racing, Rally racing, and others use synthetic oil. Not to mention some of the worlds finest production engines, like Corvette, Ford GT, Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes Benz, and others.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.


So what oil does he use or tell his customers to use in this specific application ?
 
I wouldn't believe this statement true if it was Conventional oil v.s Synthetic of the same weight. Synthetic oils are usually run at a thinner weight thinking they can get away with it because well... They are synthetic and I think this is where the problems begin.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: henni
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

He hasn't shown me any actual evidence, just that apparently when he strips down these engines, the ones run on synthetic oils apparently show more cylinder wear.


So what oil does he use or tell his customers to use in this specific application ?

Cheap 20w50 dino i think, he just mentioned Halfords which is a general parts store in the UK and they make a 20w50 Dino oil, it's API SE/CC and on paper looks pretty bottom of the barrel stuff...
Personally would never run a API SE/CC Dino oil in a Turbo engine with high boost, but apparently he does!
 
Is it possible that the full synthetic oil users also use top tier filters with glass enhanced media?
 
It's possible this engine builder saw increased cylinder wear from one particular brand and weight of synthetic oil.
After all, he's working in "a niche within a niche within a niche".
 
Yet another exclusive revelation from an oil industry outsider, this time "a really reputable engine builder on Facebook."

I've used synthetic oil exclusively in every vehicle I've operated since about 1980, most of them to very high miles. I've even broken in an engine on synthetic after a rebuild (1981 Mazda 626).

Somehow I just have a hard time getting worried that I've caused more wear.
 
Maybe it is that he has seen more cylinder wear ona particular synthetic oil, the conversation started with a post from a guy who has one of these Turbo'd Cologne V6s, and he made a post saying that his turbo shaft had play and he was looking to have it re-built, i recomended that he should use Mobil 1 or Valvoline VR1 5W-50 Full synthetic, not a bad choice i think ( stock the 2.8i 160 Hp Cologne V6 specs 20W-40 or 20W-50 according to my haynes manual )
And then this guy, the builder stepped in and said " a properly built engine doesn't need a fancy oil"

Most people i've found run 10W-40 Synthetic blends in these ( typically API SL/SM and A3/B4 or A3/B3 in Europe ).
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yet another exclusive revelation from an oil industry outsider, this time "a really reputable engine builder on Facebook."

I've used synthetic oil exclusively in every vehicle I've operated since about 1980, most of them to very high miles. I've even broken in an engine on synthetic after a rebuild (1981 Mazda 626).

Somehow I just have a hard time getting worried that I've caused more wear.

I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver

I told him that i would have a really hard time believing that a synthetic oil would cause more cylinder wear than a dino oil, but he just said "It's what i've seen from my 25 years of experience"
And provided no actual evidence..


So he's "seen" it but has presented no proof?

Sounds like some Synthetic Oil distributor would not bow to his blackmail for a huge discount.
 
I fully understand your points.
Going way back to the first few years of the introduction of Mobil 1 several engine builders would not warrantee their engines if the customer used M1 in them. Of course they all had their stories. But I have actually seen the signs way back in the day right at the counters. That was not if used for break in- but just used period.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yet another exclusive revelation from an oil industry outsider, this time "a really reputable engine builder on Facebook."

I've used synthetic oil exclusively in every vehicle I've operated since about 1980, most of them to very high miles. I've even broken in an engine on synthetic after a rebuild (1981 Mazda 626).

Somehow I just have a hard time getting worried that I've caused more wear.
 
I think the wear-in rumors and issues were related to use of majority castor bean esters or polyol, diesters, not your vanilla bean cracked n-paraffinics that are de rigueur in ILSAC FE oils in the US. I would say the higher wear is from here also as the base has inherent poor lubricity - quite unlike the oil that's been running in your fridge compressor for 30 years unchanged
smile.gif
 
I did see the inside of a Ford V6 engine with 185K, that ingested water after running through a low water area after a very heavy rain storm. The water caused a rod to bend so my friend tore down the engine which had used M1 5-30 for it's life with 10K OCIs. He was an experienced engine builder for daily drivers and drag car engines. The internals were spotless clean, all crank and rod bearings were in factory specs, cross hatch pattern was like new and the cyl walls are were in factory spec.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
So yesterday i was going back and forth with a really reputable engine builder on Facebook, the guy is a very experienced engine builder who specialises in building very high horsepower Turbo Ford Cologne V6 engines, he's been building them since the 90s and he said to me that he noticed the engines that had been run on full synthetic oils had more cylinder wear, despite being cleaner and having less Turbo issues.
I was really surprised with what he said, what do you think?

I have heard the same over the yrs. Get more info from the builder. The speculation here is useless.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
There have been discussions in the past that synthetic oil does not allow the rings to properly wear-in so they provide proper sealing and proper compression.
That is 100% false.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top