Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng

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Hello everyone, I was reading a post in this forum where someone was asking if the metallic based detergents that are present in HDEO are bad for engines that burn a lot of oil.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Metallic-based detergents (magnesium) in motor oil can lead to more ash deposits in the combustion chambers and exhaust valves. This can be a problem if the engine has a problem with oil consumption down the valve guides or past the rings. More ash deposits in a gasoline engine means more possibility of detonation or preignition. If your gas engines do not have problems with oil consumption, this should not be an issue.


I have a 284k miles 01 Corolla (with an 7afe not an 1zzfe) that burns 1 qt of oil every 1k miles. Will the increased metallic detergents in HDEO be bad for my "oil burner" engine? Should I worry?

Thanks
 
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry
smile.gif


And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?
 
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2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Silk
2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.


No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry
smile.gif


And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?


For me the oil consumption doesn´t seem high neither, it doesn´t produce visible smoke in any condition. It had an overheat 10k miles ago and all the gasket and seals of the head where changed. I did a test driving it mildly hard with my dad driving behind me to see if the piston rings suffered any damage from the overheat and he didn´t saw any smoke.
 
If someone is looking to blame things on Magnesium additives then look no further than Mobil 1 20/30 grades and Castrol Edge 0w-40. Magnesium cuts a wider swath than just HDEO's.

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.
 
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks
 
Prolly not, but a Bantam is a ways back there like WW-II, unless they are selling under that label again. It was the British take on the DKW from Germany back in the day. And at the time, the owners would use nearly any oil as some is better than none ...
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks

EMD engines made up to 2014 were two stroke and used "4 stroke" oil.
 
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.
 
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Originally Posted By: 69GTX

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?


Sodium, Valvoline!
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!

The CJ-4/SM Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 I use is (and have unfortunately little left) is magnesium based. I'm not sure about the CK-4 version. I'd love to see some VOAs of the new stuff, but I guess we have to wait.
 
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks


http://projectmopedmanual.info/Manuals/Rizzato_Califfo/Rizzato Califfo owners manual.pdf

This in the late 70s...note that clearly in referencing not to use multigrades it was identifying 4 stroke oils...

Some recent Chinese ATV manuals also specify an SAE30, but the wording is a bit more ambiguous.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.


Joe,
back in my Uni days, we were told that the Mg left harder, more abrasive deposits than the Ca...
 
Shannow,

It happened long before my time but at some point in history (80s maybe??) Magnesium got itself a bad reputation. I heard various stories about how it caused bore glazing on the Ford Tornado test (maybe where the hard deposits thing originated?), how it was sensitive to water, how it was useless in HDDO and how the Japanese totally banned its use in engine oil.

My involvement with Mg started when I was desperately in need of 'cheap stuff'. It became apparent that on an equal TBN in finished oil basis, 400 TBN Mg was cheaper than 300 TBN Ca so I just went for it! It probably helped that I wasn't carrying all that baggage that put so many of my old codger colleagues off from using Mg.

The thing was, the more I used it, the more it impressed me. And believe me, I did look hard for bore glazing and it's sensitivity to water but there was just nothing untoward to see. Regarding its use in HDDO, all I can say is I got some of my best ever diesel test passes with Mg. I also don't recall one single field problem arising from the billions of litres of Mg-based oil that I ushered into the world.

With LSPI upon us, it may be that Magnesium makes something of a comeback in which case, I for one will be happy...
 
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: userfriendly
BigJ_16's 2nd post on the previous page mentioned EMD 2-stroke engines (710X16 the last model) using 4-stroke engine oil.
Large 2-stroke cape class ship engines can also be included, but they split the cylinder oil from the crank case oil & top end oil.
The EMDs, are typically found in locomotives, fishing boats & gen-sets, last 10s of thousands of hours on zinc free engine oil.


From the little I know, marine engines tend to use Calcium Phenate and Calcium Salicylate as the primary detergents.

Railroad oils aren't my thing but isn't there something about them not being able to use ZDDP because of silver bearings?
 
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Yep, shell tellus T series versus C series for silver bearing whitemetals back in the day was Zn and Zn free.

Allis Chalmers messed up their manuals back then, specifying T for white metal, and C for roller bearings
 
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