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#4452659 - 07/07/17 07:32 PM Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng
Emanuel Offline


Registered: 07/01/17
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela, South America
Hello everyone, I was reading a post in this forum where someone was asking if the metallic based detergents that are present in HDEO are bad for engines that burn a lot of oil.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Metallic-based detergents (magnesium) in motor oil can lead to more ash deposits in the combustion chambers and exhaust valves. This can be a problem if the engine has a problem with oil consumption down the valve guides or past the rings. More ash deposits in a gasoline engine means more possibility of detonation or preignition. If your gas engines do not have problems with oil consumption, this should not be an issue.


I have a 284k miles 01 Corolla (with an 7afe not an 1zzfe) that burns 1 qt of oil every 1k miles. Will the increased metallic detergents in HDEO be bad for my "oil burner" engine? Should I worry?

Thanks

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#4452673 - 07/07/17 07:51 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5518
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry smile

And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?


Edited by BrocLuno (07/07/17 07:53 PM)
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4452704 - 07/07/17 08:08 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel]
Silk Offline


Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 4562
Loc: New Zealand
2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.
_________________________
1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.

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#4452723 - 07/07/17 08:27 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Silk]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Silk
2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.


No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Edited by ArcticDriver (07/07/17 08:28 PM)
_________________________
Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles

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#4452724 - 07/07/17 08:27 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: BrocLuno]
Emanuel Offline


Registered: 07/01/17
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela, South America
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry smile

And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?


For me the oil consumption doesnīt seem high neither, it doesnīt produce visible smoke in any condition. It had an overheat 10k miles ago and all the gasket and seals of the head where changed. I did a test driving it mildly hard with my dad driving behind me to see if the piston rings suffered any damage from the overheat and he didnīt saw any smoke.

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#4452802 - 07/07/17 09:21 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 3815
Loc: Connecticut
If someone is looking to blame things on Magnesium additives then look no further than Mobil 1 20/30 grades and Castrol Edge 0w-40. Magnesium cuts a wider swath than just HDEO's.

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?
_________________________
----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs

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#4452826 - 07/07/17 09:37 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver]
Silk Offline


Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 4562
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.
_________________________
1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.

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#4452863 - 07/07/17 10:10 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Silk]
ArcticDriver Offline


Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks
_________________________
Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles

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#4452909 - 07/07/17 11:28 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5518
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Prolly not, but a Bantam is a ways back there like WW-II, unless they are selling under that label again. It was the British take on the DKW from Germany back in the day. And at the time, the owners would use nearly any oil as some is better than none ...
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4452921 - 07/07/17 11:42 PM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1268
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks

EMD engines made up to 2014 were two stroke and used "4 stroke" oil.

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#4452944 - 07/08/17 12:22 AM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 1052
Loc: Europe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.


Edited by SonofJoe (07/08/17 12:27 AM)

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#4452952 - 07/08/17 12:45 AM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: 69GTX]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 12893
Loc: Northern Kentucky
Originally Posted By: 69GTX

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?


Sodium, Valvoline!
_________________________
2012 Chevy Cruze LT 1.4T - 50k
2002 Buick Century 130k - Built 4T65e(Maxlife) - Edge 0w40 + Fram XG3980

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#4452962 - 07/08/17 01:02 AM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: SonofJoe]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24586
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!

The CJ-4/SM Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 I use is (and have unfortunately little left) is magnesium based. I'm not sure about the CK-4 version. I'd love to see some VOAs of the new stuff, but I guess we have to wait.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4452975 - 07/08/17 02:06 AM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39871
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks


http://projectmopedmanual.info/Manuals/Rizzato_Califfo/Rizzato%20Califfo%20owners%20manual.pdf

This in the late 70s...note that clearly in referencing not to use multigrades it was identifying 4 stroke oils...

Some recent Chinese ATV manuals also specify an SAE30, but the wording is a bit more ambiguous.

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#4452977 - 07/08/17 02:08 AM Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: SonofJoe]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39871
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.


Joe,
back in my Uni days, we were told that the Mg left harder, more abrasive deposits than the Ca...

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