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Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng #4452659
07/07/17 07:32 PM
07/07/17 07:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 183
Venezuela, South America
Emanuel Offline OP
Emanuel  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 183
Venezuela, South America
Hello everyone, I was reading a post in this forum where someone was asking if the metallic based detergents that are present in HDEO are bad for engines that burn a lot of oil.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Metallic-based detergents (magnesium) in motor oil can lead to more ash deposits in the combustion chambers and exhaust valves. This can be a problem if the engine has a problem with oil consumption down the valve guides or past the rings. More ash deposits in a gasoline engine means more possibility of detonation or preignition. If your gas engines do not have problems with oil consumption, this should not be an issue.


I have a 284k miles 01 Corolla (with an 7afe not an 1zzfe) that burns 1 qt of oil every 1k miles. Will the increased metallic detergents in HDEO be bad for my "oil burner" engine? Should I worry?

Thanks

Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel] #4452673
07/07/17 07:51 PM
07/07/17 07:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,873
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,873
Kalifornia Kollective
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry smile

And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?

Last edited by BrocLuno; 07/07/17 07:53 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel] #4452704
07/07/17 08:08 PM
07/07/17 08:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,755
New Zealand
Silk Online content
Silk  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,755
New Zealand
2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Silk] #4452723
07/07/17 08:27 PM
07/07/17 08:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Silk
2 strokes burn oil all the time, I've certainly seen plenty destroyed by detonation, but it's not caused by burning oil.


No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?

Last edited by ArcticDriver; 07/07/17 08:28 PM.

Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: BrocLuno] #4452724
07/07/17 08:27 PM
07/07/17 08:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 183
Venezuela, South America
Emanuel Offline OP
Emanuel  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 183
Venezuela, South America
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
That's not really bad consumption. That is what many older Volvo's did from the factory. Yeah, it's not ideal for the CAT, but do you have SMOG tests where you operate this car?

If not, don't worry smile

And not all refiners use a lot of Mg in their blends ...

So, does this car smoke going down hill using engine braking, or more just when you start it up first thing?


For me the oil consumption doesnīt seem high neither, it doesnīt produce visible smoke in any condition. It had an overheat 10k miles ago and all the gasket and seals of the head where changed. I did a test driving it mildly hard with my dad driving behind me to see if the piston rings suffered any damage from the overheat and he didnīt saw any smoke.

Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel] #4452802
07/07/17 09:21 PM
07/07/17 09:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,870
Connecticut
69GTX Offline
69GTX  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,870
Connecticut
If someone is looking to blame things on Magnesium additives then look no further than Mobil 1 20/30 grades and Castrol Edge 0w-40. Magnesium cuts a wider swath than just HDEO's.

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?


----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver] #4452826
07/07/17 09:37 PM
07/07/17 09:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,755
New Zealand
Silk Online content
Silk  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,755
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Silk] #4452863
07/07/17 10:10 PM
07/07/17 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline
ArcticDriver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel] #4452909
07/07/17 11:28 PM
07/07/17 11:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,873
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,873
Kalifornia Kollective
Prolly not, but a Bantam is a ways back there like WW-II, unless they are selling under that label again. It was the British take on the DKW from Germany back in the day. And at the time, the owners would use nearly any oil as some is better than none ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver] #4452921
07/07/17 11:42 PM
07/07/17 11:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

No disrespect intended for a Kiwi but 2-stroke oil is designed to be burned as part of the combustion process while HDEO is not.

Any chance you know the quantity of metsllic detergents used in 2-stroke oil?


Not all 2 strokes use 2 stroke oils, and many people use engine oils in bikes designed for 2 stroke oil. I used SAE30 in my BSA Bantam. Not being stupid, just expanding the subject beyond the normal narrow viewpoint.


Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks

EMD engines made up to 2014 were two stroke and used "4 stroke" oil.

Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: Emanuel] #4452944
07/08/17 12:22 AM
07/08/17 12:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,093
Europe
SonofJoe Online content
SonofJoe  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,093
Europe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.

Last edited by SonofJoe; 07/08/17 12:27 AM.
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: 69GTX] #4452952
07/08/17 12:45 AM
07/08/17 12:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,903
Northern Kentucky
901Memphis Offline
901Memphis  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,903
Northern Kentucky
Originally Posted By: 69GTX

So now we potentially have that too much magnesium could be bad...and then too much calcium can be pad for TDI's. What's left?


Sodium, Valvoline!


2012 Chevy Cruze LT 1.4T - 50k
2002 Buick Century 130k - Built 4T65e(Maxlife) - Edge 0w40 + Fram XG3980
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: SonofJoe] #4452962
07/08/17 01:02 AM
07/08/17 01:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,424
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,424
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!

The CJ-4/SM Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 I use is (and have unfortunately little left) is magnesium based. I'm not sure about the CK-4 version. I'd love to see some VOAs of the new stuff, but I guess we have to wait.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: ArcticDriver] #4452975
07/08/17 02:06 AM
07/08/17 02:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,940
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,940
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Can you provide a link to a modern 2-stroke engine owners manual which instructs using 4-cycle oil rather than 2-stroke oil?

Thanks


http://projectmopedmanual.info/Manuals/Rizzato_Califfo/Rizzato%20Califfo%20owners%20manual.pdf

This in the late 70s...note that clearly in referencing not to use multigrades it was identifying 4 stroke oils...

Some recent Chinese ATV manuals also specify an SAE30, but the wording is a bit more ambiguous.

Re: Metallic based detergents in HDEO bad for gas eng [Re: SonofJoe] #4452977
07/08/17 02:08 AM
07/08/17 02:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,940
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,940
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry but whoever is saying Mg detergents are bad for ash and oil consumption is talking out of his or her arse!

For starters, for a given TBN, a Mg-based detergent will ALWAYS give you a LOWER Sulphated Ash than the equivalent Ca-based detergent. It's something that formulators exploit if high ash becomes a problem.

Second, for a given level of TBN in oil, a 400 TBN Mg Sulphonate (its most common form) will always yield a LOWER Noack finished oil than 300 Ca Sulphonate. Noack, not ash content is the main determinant of evaporative oil loss.

Third, if you are running say a very high Noack oil on a car that has a propensity to burn oil via evaporative oil loss, then what gets evaporated from the oil is primarily light base oil. The relatively heavy metallic detergent stays in the sump and cannot create deposits on valves or in the combustion chamber.

Finally, modern HDDOs tend not to contain excessive amounts of metallic detergent or have particulary high TBNs, so this per se should not put you off running them on a gasoline engine. I very much doubt you will find a commercial HDDO based on Magnesium but if you could, then grab it with both hands because it is good stuff!


Changing subjects, 2-stroke oils usually have very low ash content which is why they can be burnt and not leave deposits behind.


Joe,
back in my Uni days, we were told that the Mg left harder, more abrasive deposits than the Ca...

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