Recent Topics
Brilliant payback for package thieves
by SirTanon. 12/18/18 01:22 PM
Calling all Ford Owners
by dogememe. 12/18/18 01:01 PM
2003 Ford CVPI, 86kmi, 6kmi on Edge HM Ti 5W30
by Colt45ws. 12/18/18 12:35 PM
2017 Kia Sportage recall notice
by SlavaB. 12/18/18 12:26 PM
My VW Service Experience
by Delta. 12/18/18 11:36 AM
Nissan high idle, P0507
by LeakySeals. 12/18/18 11:23 AM
Should i go for even thinner fluid ?
by NICAT. 12/18/18 11:06 AM
Viscosity question
by dbierman. 12/18/18 10:50 AM
48 hours and a used car
by Imp4. 12/18/18 09:32 AM
Test driving PHEV w no battery charge
by RichardS. 12/18/18 09:02 AM
2005 Ford PSD with hard shifts when cold?
by racin4ds. 12/18/18 08:08 AM
18% off Ravenol + EVERYTHING @ Blauparts.com
by CleverUserName. 12/18/18 07:48 AM
Mattress shopping .....
by dblshock. 12/18/18 04:57 AM
AmazonBasics Oil May Drive Prices Down
by knerml. 12/18/18 04:45 AM
Hemi MDS issues are how common?
by Gasbuggy. 12/18/18 03:21 AM
Why use Redline and Redline Clone oils...
by burla. 12/17/18 11:38 PM
Tire choice
by CincyReds. 12/17/18 11:14 PM
Newest Members
MuhThugga, wxo, dbierman, keyblade, leeal
66716 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
110 registered members (14Accent, 4WD, 53' Stude, 25ring, 28oz, 13 invisible), 2,140 guests, and 39 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,222
Posts4,930,323
Members66,716
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system #4450392
07/05/17 11:27 AM
07/05/17 11:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
L_Sludger Offline OP
L_Sludger  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
I remember a long time ago on a forum, not sure if it was here or Supraforums, a member who played with water injection in his minivan. He was getting good results from it but people were very skeptical of his claims.
Bosch has developed a factory OEM water injection system for gasoline automobile engines.
http://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/...ater-injection/
Among other things, they claim improved fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

I remember back when we were talking about DIY water injection systems the prevailing thought was "If this idea was worth a rat's hootus, it would have been used by OEMs by now." Well sir, the OEMs were probably developing the systems as we spoke.

Anyway, the Bosch system is fairly simple. Here's what it boils down to: A 1.5 gallon tank of demineralized water which lasts 1500 miles. This is probably easier to obtain than the Oldsmobile Turbo-Rocket fluid of their ill-fated methanol-injected turbocharged Jetfire of years past! ( Olds Jetfire article, interesting reading )
The system injects water whenever its deemed necessary. Bosch claims:
5% more horsepower
up to 13% better fuel consumption (this is huge)
4% less CO2 emissions (Of no interest to anyone other than the carbon credit cartels)

While the horsepower increase is meager, the fuel consumption reduction is compelling. And water injection will keep the engine clean and free of deposits in the combustion chamber, so it performs consistently throughout its life cycle. That is very compelling to me.

Here's a short video. I don't care for the voice narration.


Thoughts?


too many cars and oil combinations to list in 150 characters or less
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450396
07/05/17 11:31 AM
07/05/17 11:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,462
KingCake Offline
KingCake  Offline
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,462
Water injection is really old tech. Makes biggest difference in forced induction setups where cooling the air charge = big gains. WWII planes with superchargers, like the P38 lightning, had water injection systems.

Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450472
07/05/17 01:12 PM
07/05/17 01:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
For sure, water injection is old school but now the OEMs are realy trying to economically commercialize it to their advantage. Using water injection will bring down combustion/chamber temps which allows more in-cylinder pressure and reduced NOx formation- benefiting both FE and emissions. IMO, the genial systems will use condensed water obtained from the products of combustion as the feed.


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450501
07/05/17 01:52 PM
07/05/17 01:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,064
Ruidoso, NM USA
ammolab Offline
ammolab  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,064
Ruidoso, NM USA
Just water?. And when the whole system freezes solid over a winter night?....


2009 Honda CR-V
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: ammolab] #4450532
07/05/17 02:20 PM
07/05/17 02:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,750
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
SirTanon Online content
SirTanon  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,750
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Just water?. And when the whole system freezes solid over a winter night?....


As long as the system maintains a sufficient expansion area, then the freeze should not cause any damage, and once the engine warms up, after a couple minutes of operation, the water will melt pretty quickly. In the interim, the engine will just run without water injection and nobody will no any different.

Or, some smart engineer will build in some kind of electrically-managed heating system that will maintain the water temp slightly above freezing when it detects below-freezing ambient temps.


2010 Ford Fusion SE - 2.5 liter/6F35 Trans - 266,000mi
2014 Nissan Altima SL - 2.5 liter/CVT - 60,000mi
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450533
07/05/17 02:20 PM
07/05/17 02:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,199
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,199
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger

The system injects water whenever its deemed necessary. Bosch claims:
5% more horsepower
up to 13% better fuel consumption (this is huge)


ONLY if... and I mean ONLY if - your compression is high enough to take advantage of it.

I've done a lot of work with this. Late 70's engines with 7.5:1 compression see no benefits from water injection AT ALL.

However, a high compression engine that pings like crazy on 91-93 octane can run 87 octane with a good water injection system.

What seems like a million years ago already, I rebuilt a 1969 351W (back to stock) except with a mild Crane cam.

The machine shop milled the heads .010" -.015" or so flat (now with REALLY small chambers!) and cleaned up the deck surface, about .010" - - - along with flat-tops, I was over 10:1 and didn't really know it.

I soon found out that even with 92 octane pump gas, I had to retard the timing a LOT - I was only getting about 10-11 mpg. That sucked.

There used to be a water injection kit that came with a vacuum-modulated valve (more vacuum, less flow - vacuum drops, water flow increases) and I paid about $30 or $40 for it. It WORKED!!

After I got it dialed in (lots of playing required to make these work right) I could finally get my timing back up to where it was needed for good power and economy. I ended up getting 15-16 mpg once it was all dialed in right. I quart of water only lasted about 100-150 miles, though. It was tough on the hood hinges.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450556
07/05/17 02:38 PM
07/05/17 02:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline
Brons2  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Compression is way up in modern times as compared to the mid/late 70s due to modern ignition and fuel delivery systems. My Sonata has 11.3:1 compression and runs on 87 octane, for example.

I guess they can take the compression further with water injection...

Last edited by Brons2; 07/05/17 02:39 PM.

2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: Brons2] #4450568
07/05/17 03:00 PM
07/05/17 03:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,580
Toronto
True, you're not going to find any engine sold today with a 7.5:1 compression ratio, unless maybe small OPE type small engines.

Brons2, yes most new engines use high static compression ratios but they wouldn't be able to without the use of Direct Injection (and it's cooling effect) and/or wide-range variable intake cam timing (which modifies cylinder charge pressure/dynamic compression ratio using severely retarded cam timing).


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: ammolab] #4450627
07/05/17 04:35 PM
07/05/17 04:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,811
Ottumwa, Iowa
jhellwig Offline
jhellwig  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,811
Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Just water?. And when the whole system freezes solid over a winter night?....


I think some of the aftermarket systems use windshield washer fluid for that reason.


Sparks fly from my fingers.

1995 Chevy K2500 Suburban lt 5.7
2014 Toyota Sienna
1983 Chevy K5 350
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450758
07/05/17 07:02 PM
07/05/17 07:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
I could see that injection of water if metered just perfectly, could help with fuel economy. The turbos that run on 87 tend to run very rich under high boost to control knock. If you add a little water you could lean out the mix and potentially run even higher boost


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 181 miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: Bosch WaterBoost - water injection system [Re: L_Sludger] #4450774
07/05/17 07:17 PM
07/05/17 07:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
L_Sludger Offline OP
L_Sludger  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,947
Ohio
SilverFusion2010, Excellent point about the 87 octane knock mitigation. I was going to make that point but hesitated.

Manufacturers are going to smaller and ever more stressed motors with turbos to squeeze a fraction of a percent better MPG to satisfy the CARB/CAFE beast. Water injection could be a crucial part of the next step of that trend.


too many cars and oil combinations to list in 150 characters or less

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™