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Mixed Messages From BITOG #4449195
07/04/17 08:27 AM
07/04/17 08:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 200
South Wales, UK
Bailes1992 Offline OP
Bailes1992  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 200
South Wales, UK
Probably the most suggested or recommended oil on this forum is 0w40 M1 or Castrol Edge 0w40 A3/B4.

But I see time and time again people saying you should always avoid multi-grade oils with a large difference between it's 'W' viscosity and it's operating temperature viscosity and favour a 15w40 or 10w30 as they contain less VII and will be a better oil.

So how come some oils are not included in this rule and some are?


'13 Suzuki Jimmny - '16 Dacia Duster 1.5DCi 4WD
'96 LR Defender 300TDi - '12 BMW 320d

Engine Oil - Fuchs Titan XTL GT1 5w40
Gearbox Oil - Fuchs Sintofluid 75w80
Diff Oil - Fuchs Sintopoid 75w90
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449203
07/04/17 08:34 AM
07/04/17 08:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,093
North Carolina
rooflessVW Offline
rooflessVW  Offline
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,093
North Carolina
Some people are still living in the past.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449205
07/04/17 08:37 AM
07/04/17 08:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,137
NE,Ohio
Rand Offline
Rand  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,137
NE,Ohio
Depends on application also you are somewhat halfway diving into the syn vs conventional argument.

For a diesel tractor operated in the summer in 90f there is almost no advantage in 5w40 syn vs 15w40 conventional/syn blend.

Now if you have a diesel pickup truck in Minnesota there are major advantages to syn oil.(5w40)

Fuel economy(short trips), startup wear(when cold), even being able to start certain times of year.

You cant dumb down 200000 forum posts into a paragraph and draw conclusions. You also have to look at who the posters are.


2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449206
07/04/17 08:39 AM
07/04/17 08:39 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 127
South Texas Rancho
TexasVaquero Offline
TexasVaquero  Offline
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 127
South Texas Rancho
And don't forgot the Valvoline and Pennzoil shills with their weird claims. Use what your vehicle manufacturer recommends or what works best for your vehicle.


2014 NISSAN VERSA 5spd M/T- M1 EP 5w30 and M1 EP Filter. 5k OCI.
2011 CHEVY IMPALA 3.5ltrs - M1 HM 5w30 and M1 EP Filter. 3k OCI.
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449215
07/04/17 08:55 AM
07/04/17 08:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 81
Texas
40w8 Offline
40w8  Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 81
Texas
Because in the old days they'd take a 10w and throw in Viscosity improvers (STP stuff) to thicken up oil.

That type additive tends to make hard carbon, shear down, etc.

Now they just build synthetic from Natural gas in such a way that it's specs are great like 0w40.

I was a fuel distributor selling industrial oils, and didn't need or know about 0w40 until 2008, but after reading uoa's I'm sold.

Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: 40w8] #4449234
07/04/17 09:06 AM
07/04/17 09:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: 40w8
Because in the old days they'd take a 10w and throw in Viscosity improvers (STP stuff) to thicken up oil.

That type additive tends to make hard carbon, shear down, etc.

Now they just build synthetic from Natural gas in such a way that it's specs are great like 0w40.

I was a fuel distributor selling industrial oils, and didn't need or know about 0w40 until 2008, but after reading uoa's I'm sold.

So today's GTL 0W-40 doesn't contain viscosity improvers?


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: TexasVaquero] #4449285
07/04/17 09:48 AM
07/04/17 09:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: TexasVaquero
And don't forgot the Valvoline and Pennzoil shills with their weird claims. Use what your vehicle manufacturer recommends or what works best for your vehicle.

Also don't forget the anti-Valvoline shills that make weird clamis about it siezing their engine yet never provide any details or proof, even when repeatedly asked to do so.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: kschachn] #4449319
07/04/17 10:26 AM
07/04/17 10:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Online content
BrocLuno  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,073
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 40w8
Because in the old days they'd take a 10w and throw in Viscosity improvers (STP stuff) to thicken up oil.

That type additive tends to make hard carbon, shear down, etc.

Now they just build synthetic from Natural gas in such a way that it's specs are great like 0w40.

I was a fuel distributor selling industrial oils, and didn't need or know about 0w40 until 2008, but after reading uoa's I'm sold.

So today's GTL 0W-40 doesn't contain viscosity improvers?


It probably still does, but not to the degree used back in the day ... There is a thread on "Best SAE 30" here that has lots of good reading about oil development. It started as way to discuss oils w/o VII's at all. And along the way it drifted into mono-grades that can pass multi-grade tests like a number of Red Line products. But not all fancy oils can do this w/o VII's ...

M1 in particular has gone through many formula changes and is not the same as it was 10~15 years ago. Then it was all PAO based. Now, not so much. But it has built a HUGE fan base and it's still a good oil, so there is no-one saying don't run it. And the fan boys may not be oil people, and they still recommend it. That's OK, but it does biase the post count ...

A small dose of VII's may actually be a good thing. There are some indicators that VII's are good carriers of actual oil into high pressure environments. But they do get sheared and your oil does thin over time. Some engines are worse at beating oil, some don't do much. It is not straight forward as to what should be run where. Then there is sump capacity and external oil cooling as factors ...

An oil like Chevron Delo 15W-30 SD (severe duty) is a good compromise where you don't actually need a 0W or a 5W to get the motor started in winter smile

The thing to do is to look at your owners manual and disregard the W rating at first. Look at the op temp rating. If it calls for a 30, then judge how much cold weather help you need. If you live in SoCal or AZ, or TX - just drop in SAE 30. If you live in Minnesota, it's a whole nuther calculation ...


Last edited by BrocLuno; 07/04/17 10:31 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449382
07/04/17 11:49 AM
07/04/17 11:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,655
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,655
Central Maryland
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
But I see time and time again people saying you should always avoid multi-grade oils with a large difference between it's 'W' viscosity and it's operating temperature viscosity and favour a 15w40 or 10w30 as they contain less VII and will be a better oil.

So how come some oils are not included in this rule and some are?


The reason for the confusion... there are two ways to get a wide viscosity spread. One is to use a synthetic such as a highly refined Group III+ oil, or synthetic Group IV or V lubricant. The other way is to use a very light conventional oil, and load it up with VII's. Of course, manufacturers can and do use both techniques at the same time.

Of course, the industry definition of "full synthetic" isn't 100% Group IV/V or even III+, it's at least 30% of either and the rest may be conventional oil.

I've stated here several times that 0w-20 is usually the most Synthetic you'll see in the conventional brands, while people "playing it safe" are recommending 5w-20 or 5w-30 because it's "thicker" (5w-20 is no thicker than 0w-20 except when below freezing). Previously (SM rating and before), if you looked at the 100C temperature ratings, you'll often see the 0w- oil is thicker, and the cold pour point, of course it's more fluid. That means the 0w- offerings had more synthetic then the 5w- offering, and the people "playing it safe" were just buying an inferior oil.

But then came along the SN rating, and SN oils are pretty much all semi-synthetic now.

Clear as mud?


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449403
07/04/17 12:20 PM
07/04/17 12:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,220
Port Orange, Florida
Panzerman Offline
Panzerman  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,220
Port Orange, Florida
Most people on here say follow the owners manual with little to no thought and doing anything less. I must wonder why you would go on a oil site to talk oil and shop if you do something as simple as follow the owners manual every time with no chance of deviation.



2006 Dodge Ram 2500 Hemi 4x4
2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Panzerman] #4449444
07/04/17 01:13 PM
07/04/17 01:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline
merconvvv  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Most people on here say follow the owners manual with little to no thought and doing anything less. I must wonder why you would go on a oil site to talk oil and shop if you do something as simple as follow the owners manual every time with no chance of deviation.


+1


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449495
07/04/17 02:02 PM
07/04/17 02:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
There are effectively two philosophical schools of thought when it comes to formulating engine oil.

The first revolves around the concept of 'extremes'. With this you get good performance at extremely low and extremely high temperatures. Your oil won't shear or oxidise under the most extreme conditions. This philosophy is illustrated by things like top-tier, full synthetic 0W40 oils.

The second philosophy says, the first philosophy is total bunk! Under normal conditions oils never ever see the extreme conditions set out in the first philosophy. That being the case, why not built an oil around what is likely; not around what is conceivably possible. This philosophy is reflected in stuff like 10W30s, monogrades and my own personal favourite; 10W16!

Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449514
07/04/17 02:31 PM
07/04/17 02:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,768
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline
userfriendly  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,768
BC, Canada
How likely is -25C where you live, that would necessitate a 10wX engine oil?

SAE16
100C 6.1-8.2
HTHS >2.3

If Mobil 1220 was any thinner it could be a 15W16, good to -20C CCS.

40C 66
100C 8.3
HTHS 2.9
PP -27C
FP 228C

You just need some SAE10W to knock this one down to your target HTHS.
Let's play "The Price is Right" at around $4USD/L.

Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Panzerman] #4449557
07/04/17 03:10 PM
07/04/17 03:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,271
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Most people on here say follow the owners manual with little to no thought and doing anything less. I must wonder why you would go on a oil site to talk oil and shop if you do something as simple as follow the owners manual every time with no chance of deviation.

The problem is that virtually no one on this board knows enough to make a proper decision to deviate from what the manufacturer specifies. Even then it would be appropriate only under extreme circumstances, not day-to-day operation.

We see evidence of this everywhere on BITOG. People focusing on oil properties that are not representative of what is important under operation, use of UOA (and VOA) to draw completely unwarranted conclusions about current and future performance, and most frequently the extrapolation of a little knowledge (usually obtained on the Internet) to make generalizations that are invalid.

That is what I see here the majority of the time.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Mixed Messages From BITOG [Re: Bailes1992] #4449579
07/04/17 03:30 PM
07/04/17 03:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,518
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,518
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
Probably the most suggested or recommended oil on this forum is 0w40 M1 or Castrol Edge 0w40 A3/B4.

But I see time and time again people saying you should always avoid multi-grade oils with a large difference between it's 'W' viscosity and it's operating temperature viscosity and favour a 15w40 or 10w30 as they contain less VII and will be a better oil.

So how come some oils are not included in this rule and some are?


With 10s of thousands of members, you are going to get groups of people who look at the world from different POV, in different weather extremes, and different understanding of what they consider important in an oil.

Can't say that you are getting "mixed messages" from BITOG, when BITOG isn't a single entity...

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
There are effectively two philosophical schools of thought when it comes to formulating engine oil.

The first revolves around the concept of 'extremes'. With this you get good performance at extremely low and extremely high temperatures. Your oil won't shear or oxidise under the most extreme conditions. This philosophy is illustrated by things like top-tier, full synthetic 0W40 oils.

The second philosophy says, the first philosophy is total bunk! Under normal conditions oils never ever see the extreme conditions set out in the first philosophy. That being the case, why not built an oil around what is likely; not around what is conceivably possible. This philosophy is reflected in stuff like 10W30s, monogrades and my own personal favourite; 10W16!


What he said.

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