A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks?

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So... lately, the User's Manuals for my cars are asking for MidSAPS ACEA C3 oils instead of FullSaps A3. 5w40.
Originally, Fiat's manual said ACEA A3/API SL 5w-40 or 10w-40. From 2009 it says ACEA C3 5w40 (eco- move)
Ford Ka has (almost) the same Fiat engine.
Alfa's MultiAir asked for C3 from the start. It's a FL version, Euro6 ready.

Petrol engines, running in Europe. No high sulphur gasoline -related issues.

What are the risks of running FullSAPS oils when the manual says MidSAPS ?

Catalyst shorter life? Anything else?
 
Why do you want to run full saps when mid saps is required? I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?

In this case, if your car does not consume oil much I would run full saps (229.5, A40). The moment it starts to consume any significant oil I would switch to 229.51, C30.

That's what I am doing in my MR20DE Nissan engine. It is speced for virtually any oil spec (A1, C1, C2, C3, A3/B4), but I am running it on full saps until it starts to consume oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?


Of course. I also look for smooth idle/acceleration, low noise, engine cooling.

So I favor thick 5w40's i.e. with a kinematic Viscosity 100grC of 14.7-15cSt like Agip i-Sint or Total Quartz Energy.
I already use them, I love, I adore how the engine feels and sounds.
(BTW I've chosen them for the low CCS too... the cold starts are also smooth)

The problem is... I can hardly find a C3 5w40 with a kV100grC higher than the 14.3cSt of Yacco 1000 VX FAP I use in Alfa's MultiAir.

I was wondering if the C3 recommandation is just for emissions's sake... or is any structural reason... like new alloys used (improbable, but I thought is worth asking )

I know that low sulphur means less sulphuric acid so less corrosion.

I have no oil consumption problem.
 
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You can use A3/B4 oil in C3 petrol cars without adverse effects- except possibly for catalyst on a VERY long periods, but why? C3s are more modern oils with organic additives that aren't necessarily seen on a cheap VOA. Also, they have stricter specification/wear requirements than A3/B4.

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.
 
I'd run an A3/B4 spec'd for A40, LL-01, and 229.5 without hesitation. Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?
 
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Originally Posted By: chrisri

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.


Actually that's the MA that worries me a (little) bit.
Why should I stick with C3? that is the main question.

Basically, it's a Fiat 1.4 turbo engine with a MultiAir unit attached. MultiAir is a electro-hydraulic device, so viscosity matters, not the SAPS.
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Thanks. I can find it on the internet. Not available in shops here in France.
 
thanks, I already ordered there (tyres mostly), they have good prices for motor oils too.

It was my source for Agip i-Sint 5w40 .
 
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant. However, with MA being very delicate unit I wouldn't play with oem general recommendation.

Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.

We have to take into consideration that we do not know the real reasoning behind FIATs recommendation in this particular engine. Less deposits over time?
 
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant.


It's not my logic, it's my worries
smile.gif
But I see your point.
I explained in my 2nd post my reasons for preferring a FullSAPS. It's not for additives' sake only, but I still can find stout 5w40s with kv100grC > 14.7cSt in FullSAPS area.


For me , deposits shouldn't be a problem. I change oils at 8000-12000kms, when viscosity drops to the point that the engine becomes noisier.
Anyway, that might be a good reason.

My logic is : since it's a gasoline turbo engine with a Multi Air electro hydraulic VVT unit, why should SAPS even matter, as long as I respect the viscosity class?

Moreover, initially the Fiat demanded 10w40 API SL/ACEA A3, later (>2009 iirc) they came with 5w40 ACEA C3 for the same engine/model.

So to rephrase my question : is it just an emissions (ecological) reason behind it, or a technical reason too?

Deposits? Good point, thank you. I hope it's only that.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.

That is interesting, thank you for that info. However a member Weasley who seems (actually no doubt) to be in contemporary oil business (big British company I presume) has made clear that fear from mid SAPS oils are unnecessary.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr

A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.


Interesting.
Another related debate is going on "next door", and the article quoted by the OP is worth reading.
link
 
Zveroboy , you are , I'm afraid, a test mule or a early adopter if you prefer with FS in MA. I would think main concern with MA system is oil oxidation/thickening and deposit control.

IMO the paramount is to keep OCI reasonable, for company car about 15K, personal vehicle 10K. Oil sump is small, engines are relatively power dense, probably hard on oil. If you choose to try then go with either PAO Edge 0w40 or GTL. GTL unstucked clogged variatior on friends GTV.

PS:friend got a 2.0.16v Bravo in his shop. Shredded dumping pulley on crack. Melted [censored] went into cambelt, it slipped a tooth and died. It went safe mode and lot of noise before but the owner (in early 20s I know everything kid) didn't give a much of though. 4,5K Euro repair costmade him think. I've looked at pistons, camgear all VERY clean at 200K.
 
I'm struggling already.

The Swiss-made Motorex Select SP-X 5w40 looks great (kVisc100 14.6cSt, CCS 4618, Noack 8.7) but I can't find it in France.
 
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