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#4446651 - 07/01/17 12:30 PM A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks?
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
So... lately, the User's Manuals for my cars are asking for MidSAPS ACEA C3 oils instead of FullSaps A3. 5w40.
Originally, Fiat's manual said ACEA A3/API SL 5w-40 or 10w-40. From 2009 it says ACEA C3 5w40 (eco- move)
Ford Ka has (almost) the same Fiat engine.
Alfa's MultiAir asked for C3 from the start. It's a FL version, Euro6 ready.

Petrol engines, running in Europe. No high sulphur gasoline -related issues.

What are the risks of running FullSAPS oils when the manual says MidSAPS ?

Catalyst shorter life? Anything else?
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4446652 - 07/01/17 12:34 PM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
rooflessVW Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 4049
Loc: North Carolina
No risk.
_________________________
"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."

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#4446741 - 07/01/17 02:22 PM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
volodymyr Offline


Registered: 09/13/14
Posts: 444
Loc: Switzerland
Why do you want to run full saps when mid saps is required? I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?

In this case, if your car does not consume oil much I would run full saps (229.5, A40). The moment it starts to consume any significant oil I would switch to 229.51, C30.

That's what I am doing in my MR20DE Nissan engine. It is speced for virtually any oil spec (A1, C1, C2, C3, A3/B4), but I am running it on full saps until it starts to consume oil.


Edited by volodymyr (07/01/17 02:23 PM)
_________________________
2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)

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#4446814 - 07/01/17 03:39 PM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?


Of course. I also look for smooth idle/acceleration, low noise, engine cooling.

So I favor thick 5w40's i.e. with a kinematic Viscosity 100grC of 14.7-15cSt like Agip i-Sint or Total Quartz Energy.
I already use them, I love, I adore how the engine feels and sounds.
(BTW I've chosen them for the low CCS too... the cold starts are also smooth)

The problem is... I can hardly find a C3 5w40 with a kV100grC higher than the 14.3cSt of Yacco 1000 VX FAP I use in Alfa's MultiAir.

I was wondering if the C3 recommandation is just for emissions's sake... or is any structural reason... like new alloys used (improbable, but I thought is worth asking )

I know that low sulphur means less sulphuric acid so less corrosion.

I have no oil consumption problem.


Edited by zveroboy (07/01/17 03:46 PM)
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4446893 - 07/01/17 05:28 PM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1744
Loc: Rijeka, EU
You can use A3/B4 oil in C3 petrol cars without adverse effects- except possibly for catalyst on a VERY long periods, but why? C3s are more modern oils with organic additives that aren't necessarily seen on a cheap VOA. Also, they have stricter specification/wear requirements than A3/B4.

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v MST 5w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40

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#4447113 - 07/02/17 01:01 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
1JZ_E46 Offline


Registered: 04/04/16
Posts: 1227
Loc: Oregon
I'd run an A3/B4 spec'd for A40, LL-01, and 229.5 without hesitation. Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?


Edited by 1JZ_E46 (07/02/17 01:03 AM)
_________________________
2007 BMW X5 4.8i, 105K: Castrol EDGE 0W-40, Mann
2012 Mini Cooper, 45K: Castrol EDGE 0W-30, Mann

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#4447130 - 07/02/17 02:59 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: chrisri

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.


Actually that's the MA that worries me a (little) bit.
Why should I stick with C3? that is the main question.

Basically, it's a Fiat 1.4 turbo engine with a MultiAir unit attached. MultiAir is a electro-hydraulic device, so viscosity matters, not the SAPS.


Edited by zveroboy (07/02/17 03:00 AM)
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4447131 - 07/02/17 03:03 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: 1JZ_E46]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Thanks. I can find it on the internet. Not available in shops here in France.
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4447139 - 07/02/17 03:50 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
volodymyr Offline


Registered: 09/13/14
Posts: 444
Loc: Switzerland
Salut zveroboy,

Originally Posted By: zveroboy
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Thanks. I can find it on the internet. Not available in shops here in France.


I can recommend the french version of reifendirekt: https://www.123pneus.fr/cgi-bin/oshop.pl...n=--Recherche--
_________________________
2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)

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#4447143 - 07/02/17 04:03 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
thanks, I already ordered there (tyres mostly), they have good prices for motor oils too.

It was my source for Agip i-Sint 5w40 .
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4447163 - 07/02/17 05:41 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1744
Loc: Rijeka, EU
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant. However, with MA being very delicate unit I wouldn't play with oem general recommendation.

Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.

We have to take into consideration that we do not know the real reasoning behind FIATs recommendation in this particular engine. Less deposits over time?
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v MST 5w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40

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#4447168 - 07/02/17 06:08 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri]
volodymyr Offline


Registered: 09/13/14
Posts: 444
Loc: Switzerland
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.
_________________________
2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)

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#4447173 - 07/02/17 06:33 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant.


It's not my logic, it's my worries smile But I see your point.
I explained in my 2nd post my reasons for preferring a FullSAPS. It's not for additives' sake only, but I still can find stout 5w40s with kv100grC > 14.7cSt in FullSAPS area.


For me , deposits shouldn't be a problem. I change oils at 8000-12000kms, when viscosity drops to the point that the engine becomes noisier.
Anyway, that might be a good reason.

My logic is : since it's a gasoline turbo engine with a Multi Air electro hydraulic VVT unit, why should SAPS even matter, as long as I respect the viscosity class?

Moreover, initially the Fiat demanded 10w40 API SL/ACEA A3, later (>2009 iirc) they came with 5w40 ACEA C3 for the same engine/model.

So to rephrase my question : is it just an emissions (ecological) reason behind it, or a technical reason too?

Deposits? Good point, thank you. I hope it's only that.
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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#4447199 - 07/02/17 07:26 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1744
Loc: Rijeka, EU
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.

That is interesting, thank you for that info. However a member Weasley who seems (actually no doubt) to be in contemporary oil business (big British company I presume) has made clear that fear from mid SAPS oils are unnecessary.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v MST 5w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40

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#4447205 - 07/02/17 07:44 AM Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr]
zveroboy Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 82
Loc: Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: volodymyr

A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.


Interesting.
Another related debate is going on "next door", and the article quoted by the OP is worth reading.
link
_________________________
2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40

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