Recent Topics
Pep Boys
by Zee09. 12/14/18 12:41 PM
How early in engines life can I start to extend OCI
by Doublehaul. 12/14/18 12:33 PM
EFB and AGM batteries charge faster?
by slybunda. 12/14/18 11:20 AM
97.5 Regal GS climate control illumination
by 71Chevyguy. 12/14/18 11:04 AM
Cool train site for Canadians
by Papa Bear. 12/14/18 10:09 AM
Putting together a groups 3/4/5 synthetic list
by MrWideTires. 12/14/18 10:02 AM
VW Atlas V6 Oil
by motech. 12/14/18 09:32 AM
Great shakes, it's Yahtzee... or a Taurus
by redhat. 12/14/18 09:03 AM
MWI Micro Wave Ignition
by Danno. 12/14/18 08:52 AM
8k Miles on M1 EP 2017 Subaru 3.6
by BISCUT. 12/14/18 08:47 AM
Wrong ATF Fluid in my 07 Chevy Impala
by CM613. 12/14/18 08:39 AM
Hyundai motor oil
by pbm. 12/14/18 08:16 AM
Which Exhaust Manifold Should I Buy
by Miller88. 12/14/18 08:10 AM
Rotella T5 10w30 Ford 6.7L anyone?
by sw99. 12/14/18 07:49 AM
Advice on spark plugs for 90,000 mile Accord
by Chris B.. 12/13/18 11:24 PM
Elec star kit for predator engine...
by SmokeyBear. 12/13/18 11:07 PM
Mecredes Bosch vs Ngk sparks plug
by Rohan. 12/13/18 09:48 PM
Wife problem?
by penguin. 12/13/18 08:04 PM
2008 Chevy Malibu 3.6L V6
by lordcheeto. 12/13/18 07:36 PM
Newest Members
captobvious, pgrkcs, 4Doors4Life, 780Ari, kayumb
66677 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
100 registered members (bdcardinal, 4WD, AndyB, AZjeff, Alfred_B, 14 invisible), 1,982 guests, and 43 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,061
Posts4,927,058
Members66,677
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? #4446651
07/01/17 11:30 AM
07/01/17 11:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
So... lately, the User's Manuals for my cars are asking for MidSAPS ACEA C3 oils instead of FullSaps A3. 5w40.
Originally, Fiat's manual said ACEA A3/API SL 5w-40 or 10w-40. From 2009 it says ACEA C3 5w40 (eco- move)
Ford Ka has (almost) the same Fiat engine.
Alfa's MultiAir asked for C3 from the start. It's a FL version, Euro6 ready.

Petrol engines, running in Europe. No high sulphur gasoline -related issues.

What are the risks of running FullSAPS oils when the manual says MidSAPS ?

Catalyst shorter life? Anything else?


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4446652
07/01/17 11:34 AM
07/01/17 11:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,105
North Carolina
rooflessVW Offline
rooflessVW  Offline
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,105
North Carolina
No risk.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4446741
07/01/17 01:22 PM
07/01/17 01:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline
volodymyr  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Why do you want to run full saps when mid saps is required? I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?

In this case, if your car does not consume oil much I would run full saps (229.5, A40). The moment it starts to consume any significant oil I would switch to 229.51, C30.

That's what I am doing in my MR20DE Nissan engine. It is speced for virtually any oil spec (A1, C1, C2, C3, A3/B4), but I am running it on full saps until it starts to consume oil.

Last edited by volodymyr; 07/01/17 01:23 PM.

2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr] #4446814
07/01/17 02:39 PM
07/01/17 02:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I presume you want to get better engine wear protection, right?


Of course. I also look for smooth idle/acceleration, low noise, engine cooling.

So I favor thick 5w40's i.e. with a kinematic Viscosity 100grC of 14.7-15cSt like Agip i-Sint or Total Quartz Energy.
I already use them, I love, I adore how the engine feels and sounds.
(BTW I've chosen them for the low CCS too... the cold starts are also smooth)

The problem is... I can hardly find a C3 5w40 with a kV100grC higher than the 14.3cSt of Yacco 1000 VX FAP I use in Alfa's MultiAir.

I was wondering if the C3 recommandation is just for emissions's sake... or is any structural reason... like new alloys used (improbable, but I thought is worth asking )

I know that low sulphur means less sulphuric acid so less corrosion.

I have no oil consumption problem.

Last edited by zveroboy; 07/01/17 02:46 PM.

2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4446893
07/01/17 04:28 PM
07/01/17 04:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
You can use A3/B4 oil in C3 petrol cars without adverse effects- except possibly for catalyst on a VERY long periods, but why? C3s are more modern oils with organic additives that aren't necessarily seen on a cheap VOA. Also, they have stricter specification/wear requirements than A3/B4.

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4447113
07/02/17 12:01 AM
07/02/17 12:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,585
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,585
Oregon
I'd run an A3/B4 spec'd for A40, LL-01, and 229.5 without hesitation. Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Last edited by 1JZ_E46; 07/02/17 12:03 AM.

2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri] #4447130
07/02/17 01:59 AM
07/02/17 01:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: chrisri

In reality you can use anything from A3/B4, C3 or even E6/7/9 in a Panda and Ka. With MA stick with C3.


Actually that's the MA that worries me a (little) bit.
Why should I stick with C3? that is the main question.

Basically, it's a Fiat 1.4 turbo engine with a MultiAir unit attached. MultiAir is a electro-hydraulic device, so viscosity matters, not the SAPS.

Last edited by zveroboy; 07/02/17 02:00 AM.

2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4447131
07/02/17 02:03 AM
07/02/17 02:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Thanks. I can find it on the internet. Not available in shops here in France.


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4447139
07/02/17 02:50 AM
07/02/17 02:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline
volodymyr  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Salut zveroboy,

Originally Posted By: zveroboy
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Something like EDGE 0W-40. Do you have that in your region?

Thanks. I can find it on the internet. Not available in shops here in France.


I can recommend the french version of reifendirekt: https://www.123pneus.fr/cgi-bin/oshop.pl...n=--Recherche--


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr] #4447143
07/02/17 03:03 AM
07/02/17 03:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
thanks, I already ordered there (tyres mostly), they have good prices for motor oils too.

It was my source for Agip i-Sint 5w40 .


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: zveroboy] #4447163
07/02/17 04:41 AM
07/02/17 04:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant. However, with MA being very delicate unit I wouldn't play with oem general recommendation.

Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.

We have to take into consideration that we do not know the real reasoning behind FIATs recommendation in this particular engine. Less deposits over time?


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri] #4447168
07/02/17 05:08 AM
07/02/17 05:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline
volodymyr  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: chrisri] #4447173
07/02/17 05:33 AM
07/02/17 05:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Zveroboy I see your logic behind SAPS level being irrelevant.


It's not my logic, it's my worries smile But I see your point.
I explained in my 2nd post my reasons for preferring a FullSAPS. It's not for additives' sake only, but I still can find stout 5w40s with kv100grC > 14.7cSt in FullSAPS area.


For me , deposits shouldn't be a problem. I change oils at 8000-12000kms, when viscosity drops to the point that the engine becomes noisier.
Anyway, that might be a good reason.

My logic is : since it's a gasoline turbo engine with a Multi Air electro hydraulic VVT unit, why should SAPS even matter, as long as I respect the viscosity class?

Moreover, initially the Fiat demanded 10w40 API SL/ACEA A3, later (>2009 iirc) they came with 5w40 ACEA C3 for the same engine/model.

So to rephrase my question : is it just an emissions (ecological) reason behind it, or a technical reason too?

Deposits? Good point, thank you. I hope it's only that.


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr] #4447199
07/02/17 06:26 AM
07/02/17 06:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri


Mind that in EU Cx oils get most of the "love", and oils have to pass the same or even more stricter tests. If you haven't depleted TBN then there is zero benefits with using A3.


A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.

That is interesting, thank you for that info. However a member Weasley who seems (actually no doubt) to be in contemporary oil business (big British company I presume) has made clear that fear from mid SAPS oils are unnecessary.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: A3 oil in gasoline engine asking for C3 - Risks? [Re: volodymyr] #4447205
07/02/17 06:44 AM
07/02/17 06:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
zveroboy Offline OP
zveroboy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 82
Gallia/Dacia
Originally Posted By: volodymyr

A year ago I asked Liqui Moly tech support if I should switch to C3 or stay with A3 considering that my Nissan MR20DE engine allows both. Their response was: we've seen better wear protection with A3, so unless there is recommendation to use C3 it is better to use A3.


Interesting.
Another related debate is going on "next door", and the article quoted by the OP is worth reading.
link


2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Yacco 1000 VX FAP 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Total Quartz Energy 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Agip i-Sint 5w40
Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™