Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
11,956
Location
PA
Currently working on oil choice for two applications:

1. Completely stock. Calls for ISLAC GF-4 (API SM with starburst) 5w-20. Potential for high heat and high fuel dilution. Prone to carbon deposit formation. Burns oil @ 1 qt/1k miles, but MUST preserve the catalytic converter. 5k max OCIs.

2. Mostly stock. Called for API SG 7.5w-30 originally (rare spec); later updated to SJ, 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40. Twin-turbocharged, ~120 hp/L @ 0.7 bar boost (maybe more in the future). No catalytic converter. 3k-5k OCIs.


Had a thought or two about going a different route from the usual "any OTS synthetic" or "Red Line/Amsoil/whatever" knee-jerk reaction. Hoping for some informed feedback here.

Mechanically, neither application seems particularly demanding. Also, OCIs will be short no matter what oil is used. That seems to leave plenty of room to focus on other things. For the first app, I'd like something that resists and controls high temp deposits, keeps the engine squeaky-clean inside, and will be extra nice to the catalytic converter. The second app affords much more freedom (less oil burning, no cat to poison), but I figure there's no sense picking a dirty oil if it's not necessary; cleaner can only help.

Based on that, I figure that if I can find low ash oils that still meet demanding specs, they'd probably be good candidates. No sense in a super-robust additive package when a lower-ash one can get the job done with fewer deposits.

Here are some examples from Lubrizol's Relative Performance Tool (link): low ash specs with very high scores for "piston deposits" and "oxidative thickening", while maintaining high scores for wear control.

MB 229.52 and MB 229.71 in the "Passenger Car" section:


MB 228.61 in the "Heavy Duty Vehicle" section:


AFAIK, 229.52 is okay for gas engines; 229.71 may or may not be, but at least one of the oils that meets it also carries gas engine specs. Can't tell about 228.61, but I suspect application #2 would be fine with it either way.

Given all that, am I right to imagine that these would be decent candidates for the applications described above? Are there shortcomings to these specs that might be relevant to the applications as I described them?
 
Interesting! Thanks for the tip. 507 looks like a heck of a spec.

Lubrizol has the SA limit for VW 507 listed as 1.5%, which is higher than API CJ-4 at 1%. Is that an error on their part?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Lubrizol has the SA limit for VW 507 listed as 1.5%, which is higher than API CJ-4 at 1%. Is that an error on their part?

I was wondering about that, but even Afton Chemical Spec Handbook lists SA limit of 1.5% for VW 507.00 spec. However, as was mentioned earlier, most VW 507.00 oils also meet ACEA C3 spec, and that one does limit SA to 0.8%.
 
Got it. Thanks again. Also noticed Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 (their 507-approved product) is at 0.6%, so that's good, too. :]

Any thoughts on this strategy for the applications I described?
 
well for application #1 you could try a 7500 mile oci (with analysis), the 507 oils are really tough and are designed to take soot from huge egr rates, cooking from dpf regeneration and resist shearing from the drivetrain. 507 oils are also approved for the PD engines which consume their camshafts at an alarming rate.

Guys over at the TDI club find tbn retention is excellent with tbn levels in the 2-3 range (or higher) even after 10K miles in a diesel engine. Lots of good reading here

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=154548

I really dont have any suggestion for application #2, I am not familiar with that engine.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

2. Mostly stock. Called for API SG 7.5w-30 originally (rare spec); Twin-turbocharged, ~120 hp/L @ 0.7 bar boost


What vehicle is this?
 
Knew someone would ask. :]

I'd prefer not to name the vehicles, mainly because I suspect it would derail the thread. For now, I'm mainly focused on assessing the reasoning I laid out.
 
Man, I wish the Lubrizol tool were useful for comparing between specs. It'd be nice to compare VW 507 against those MB specs.
 
Look at the note in italics to the right:
Quote:
NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification, for example, ACEA E6 versus ACEA E7, or API CH-4 versus API CJ-4. This tool has not been expressly designed to show relative performances between different specifications.

I've only skimmed on this, but it seems to me that VW 507 and the MB 22x.xx specs measure wear using different tests. I'm sure Lubrizol has opinions about how they compare, but anything beyond that seems tough to do in a valid way.
 
Here's a question: Any worry about a lack of detergency or other cleaning abilities with oils like these?
 
Bump for feedback on this...
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Here's a question: Any worry about a lack of detergency or other cleaning abilities with oils like these?


...and a minor update or two.

Still deciding for App #1. Cost-no-object, a 229.71 oil would have been my choice, but it seems there are only two in existence and neither is available Stateside. I've only looked at a couple of other low-ash options (Mobil 1 ESP X1 0w-30 and ESP Formula 5w-30); those are tempting but expensive. Anyone know of any other potential options, preferably ones that are available in bigger jugs?

App #2 ended up going with Castrol Edge 0w-40. It's available in jugs for less than half the per-quart cost of the low ash options, and it's closer to the viscosities and additization most people use in that application, so the owner didn't feel like being adventurous.
 
A lot of WRX and STI owners are running Mobil 1 ESP or Motul X-clean at 3-5k intervals in hopes of mitigating carbon deposits/LSPI. Looks like Motul has revamped its X-clean offerings (there are now three) so surely one of those or Motul Specific would fit the bill. Some of them list the SA levels on the data sheet and some do not.

There are now a total of nine Motul 5W-30's!
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
A lot of WRX and STI owners are running Mobil 1 ESP or Motul X-clean at 3-5k intervals in hopes of mitigating carbon deposits/LSPI.

Interesting. Any evidence of whether it's working?


Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Looks like Motul has revamped its X-clean offerings (there are now three) so surely one of those or Motul Specific would fit the bill. Some of them list the SA levels on the data sheet and some do not.

There are now a total of nine Motul 5W-30's!

Thanks for the tip. I noticed those as well.

Motul is so expensive! Great offerings though. Will have to add those to the list.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Still deciding for App #1. Cost-no-object, a 229.71 oil would have been my choice, but it seems there are only two in existence and neither is available Stateside. I've only looked at a couple of other low-ash options (Mobil 1 ESP X1 0w-30 and ESP Formula 5w-30); those are tempting but expensive. Anyone know of any other potential options, preferably ones that are available in bigger jugs?

How about an E6 lubricant like Shell Rotella Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 CK-4/SN or Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 CJ-4/SN? They are both low phosphorus lubes that also have elevated HTHS.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
How about an E6 lubricant like Shell Rotella Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 CK-4/SN or Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 CJ-4/SN? They are both low phosphorus lubes that also have elevated HTHS.

Interesting.

Mobil lists 1% ash content for the Delvac 1 LE. Can't find an ash number for the Rotella. Have you seen one?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
A lot of WRX and STI owners are running Mobil 1 ESP or Motul X-clean at 3-5k intervals in hopes of mitigating carbon deposits/LSPI.

Interesting. Any evidence of whether it's working?


Good question!

I think there have only been a few people that have had driveability issues, but it seems that a lot of people are doing walnut blasting as a precautionary measure based on some intake valve pics. I'm not sure if those running reduced SAPS oils have had valve deposit issues, but I don't think that they have.

Lots are actually just sticking with GF5 oils since they want to follow the owner's manual recommendations. The few diluted 30 weights don't seem to be causing much abnormal uoa wear. FYI, any WRX after 2015 is a DIT while the STI does not yet have DI.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2657990
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Mobil lists 1% ash content for the Delvac 1 LE. Can't find an ash number for the Rotella. Have you seen one?

It will likely be the same. Every E6 lubricant I've seen that posts the ash number is right around there, and I can't see why Shell's variant would be any different.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top