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#4444539 - 06/29/17 05:47 AM Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Currently working on oil choice for two applications:

1. Completely stock. Calls for ISLAC GF-4 (API SM with starburst) 5w-20. Potential for high heat and high fuel dilution. Prone to carbon deposit formation. Burns oil @ 1 qt/1k miles, but MUST preserve the catalytic converter. 5k max OCIs.

2. Mostly stock. Called for API SG 7.5w-30 originally (rare spec); later updated to SJ, 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40. Twin-turbocharged, ~120 hp/L @ 0.7 bar boost (maybe more in the future). No catalytic converter. 3k-5k OCIs.


Had a thought or two about going a different route from the usual "any OTS synthetic" or "Red Line/Amsoil/whatever" knee-jerk reaction. Hoping for some informed feedback here.

Mechanically, neither application seems particularly demanding. Also, OCIs will be short no matter what oil is used. That seems to leave plenty of room to focus on other things. For the first app, I'd like something that resists and controls high temp deposits, keeps the engine squeaky-clean inside, and will be extra nice to the catalytic converter. The second app affords much more freedom (less oil burning, no cat to poison), but I figure there's no sense picking a dirty oil if it's not necessary; cleaner can only help.

Based on that, I figure that if I can find low ash oils that still meet demanding specs, they'd probably be good candidates. No sense in a super-robust additive package when a lower-ash one can get the job done with fewer deposits.

Here are some examples from Lubrizol's Relative Performance Tool (link): low ash specs with very high scores for "piston deposits" and "oxidative thickening", while maintaining high scores for wear control.

MB 229.52 and MB 229.71 in the "Passenger Car" section:


MB 228.61 in the "Heavy Duty Vehicle" section:


AFAIK, 229.52 is okay for gas engines; 229.71 may or may not be, but at least one of the oils that meets it also carries gas engine specs. Can't tell about 228.61, but I suspect application #2 would be fine with it either way.

Given all that, am I right to imagine that these would be decent candidates for the applications described above? Are there shortcomings to these specs that might be relevant to the applications as I described them?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4444646 - 06/29/17 08:38 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
2004tdigls Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 487
Loc: maple ridge, bc
try a VW 507 diesel engine oil, the ash level is even lower than a API CJ oil but the additive pack is designed to allow 10K oil change intervals

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/vw_motor_oil_specifications_explained.php

http://germanoem.ca/parts/chemicals/engi...w30-oil-1l.html



Edited by 2004tdigls (06/29/17 08:48 AM)

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#4444658 - 06/29/17 08:47 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: 2004tdigls]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Interesting! Thanks for the tip. 507 looks like a heck of a spec.

Lubrizol has the SA limit for VW 507 listed as 1.5%, which is higher than API CJ-4 at 1%. Is that an error on their part?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4444678 - 06/29/17 09:00 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
2004tdigls Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 487
Loc: maple ridge, bc
VW limits SA in 507 oils to 0.8% to protect the diesel particle filter, so it appears that the Lubrizol site it not correct

this tdi club thread explains the difference between an API CJ oil and a VW 507 oil (see too slick' comments)

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=278663

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#4444682 - 06/29/17 09:07 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35956
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Lubrizol has the SA limit for VW 507 listed as 1.5%, which is higher than API CJ-4 at 1%. Is that an error on their part?

I was wondering about that, but even Afton Chemical Spec Handbook lists SA limit of 1.5% for VW 507.00 spec. However, as was mentioned earlier, most VW 507.00 oils also meet ACEA C3 spec, and that one does limit SA to 0.8%.
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#4444683 - 06/29/17 09:07 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: 2004tdigls]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Got it. Thanks again. Also noticed Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 (their 507-approved product) is at 0.6%, so that's good, too. :]

Any thoughts on this strategy for the applications I described?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4444710 - 06/29/17 09:23 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
2004tdigls Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 487
Loc: maple ridge, bc
well for application #1 you could try a 7500 mile oci (with analysis), the 507 oils are really tough and are designed to take soot from huge egr rates, cooking from dpf regeneration and resist shearing from the drivetrain. 507 oils are also approved for the PD engines which consume their camshafts at an alarming rate.

Guys over at the TDI club find tbn retention is excellent with tbn levels in the 2-3 range (or higher) even after 10K miles in a diesel engine. Lots of good reading here

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=154548

I really dont have any suggestion for application #2, I am not familiar with that engine.


Edited by 2004tdigls (06/29/17 09:24 AM)

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#4444736 - 06/29/17 09:37 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6186
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

2. Mostly stock. Called for API SG 7.5w-30 originally (rare spec); Twin-turbocharged, ~120 hp/L @ 0.7 bar boost


What vehicle is this?
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"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4444938 - 06/29/17 12:50 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: Linctex]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Knew someone would ask. :]

I'd prefer not to name the vehicles, mainly because I suspect it would derail the thread. For now, I'm mainly focused on assessing the reasoning I laid out.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4445160 - 06/29/17 04:37 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Man, I wish the Lubrizol tool were useful for comparing between specs. It'd be nice to compare VW 507 against those MB specs.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4445203 - 06/29/17 05:26 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
2004tdigls Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 487
Loc: maple ridge, bc
its there, look under passenger oils, vw 504/507

https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html

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#4445218 - 06/29/17 05:48 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Look at the note in italics to the right:
Quote:
NOTE: These performance charts are primarily designed to demonstrate relative performances within the same industry specification, for example, ACEA E6 versus ACEA E7, or API CH-4 versus API CJ-4. This tool has not been expressly designed to show relative performances between different specifications.

I've only skimmed on this, but it seems to me that VW 507 and the MB 22x.xx specs measure wear using different tests. I'm sure Lubrizol has opinions about how they compare, but anything beyond that seems tough to do in a valid way.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4446451 - 07/01/17 06:12 AM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Here's a question: Any worry about a lack of detergency or other cleaning abilities with oils like these?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4526077 - 09/25/17 06:32 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11249
Loc: PA
Bump for feedback on this...
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Here's a question: Any worry about a lack of detergency or other cleaning abilities with oils like these?


...and a minor update or two.

Still deciding for App #1. Cost-no-object, a 229.71 oil would have been my choice, but it seems there are only two in existence and neither is available Stateside. I've only looked at a couple of other low-ash options (Mobil 1 ESP X1 0w-30 and ESP Formula 5w-30); those are tempting but expensive. Anyone know of any other potential options, preferably ones that are available in bigger jugs?

App #2 ended up going with Castrol Edge 0w-40. It's available in jugs for less than half the per-quart cost of the low ash options, and it's closer to the viscosities and additization most people use in that application, so the owner didn't feel like being adventurous.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4526762 - 09/26/17 01:47 PM Re: Tough low-ash OE specs, API SJ/SM apps, short OCIs [Re: d00df00d]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 2287
Loc: NJ
A lot of WRX and STI owners are running Mobil 1 ESP or Motul X-clean at 3-5k intervals in hopes of mitigating carbon deposits/LSPI. Looks like Motul has revamped its X-clean offerings (there are now three) so surely one of those or Motul Specific would fit the bill. Some of them list the SA levels on the data sheet and some do not.

There are now a total of nine Motul 5W-30's!
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'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
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