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True economics of extended oil drains #4444473
06/29/17 12:34 AM
06/29/17 12:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline OP
userfriendly  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
ASTM D7589

https://www.astm.org/Standards/D7589.htm

OK, this one costs money, maybe there is a free download to be had in the ether.

Basically fuel economy savings from resource saving engine oils vs a base-line oil disintegrate with age in use.
For example; xW20 resource conserving provides a 2.6% savings when fresh, but only 1.2% after 100 hours in the sequence test.
Other grades drop 1% over the same time.
At some point, there would be no fuel savings, and extending the drain further to save a few quarts of oil, will cost you gallons of fuel.

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444488
06/29/17 01:42 AM
06/29/17 01:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline
OneEyeJack  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
I base the interval on how everything is doing inside the engine and not any financial considerations. I'd have a stroke if I had to rebuild my 4Runner's V8 engine for trying to save a few dollars on engine oil.

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444500
06/29/17 03:07 AM
06/29/17 03:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
I've always regarded these tests as providing highly misleading information.

Sequence VID fuel economy is measured relative to a 20W30 oil; an oil grade that the US probably stopped using as a PCMO when multigrades were widely adopted in the 1950s! It would make far more sense to measure FE against something like a 10W30 which was the de facto oil in the US for many years but of course then, the indicated fuel economy gain would be far smaller and Joe Public might justifiably ask 'Resource Conversing? Really?Are you pulling my plonker??'

Given that the Sequence VID was first used in GF-5, around 2008/2009-ish, it would have been far more honest to use a 5W30 oil as the base line reference oil because it was by then already the dominant oil grade.

There's another dimension to this. I can't speak for the VID which arrived as I was departing, but it's predecessor, the Sequence VIB, was the most God awful of tests and bordered on being a random number generator! New VIB engines would always start off a bit 'tight'. Getting a passing result on a new engine was always nigh on impossible. Then as the engine started to loosen up, you might just be within a shout of getting a pass but it still could bounce either way. As I recall, there would come a time when the engine was so loose that it fell out of calibration and the entire sorry state of affairs would have to start again.

Finally, I have always disliked how overambitiously set VIB/VID targets have driven US PCMOs to ever lower CCSs to pass these fuel economy tests. The result is a preponderance of US oils with stupidly high Noacks, laden with excess VII polymer that just shouldn't be there.

Rant over...

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444504
06/29/17 03:23 AM
06/29/17 03:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,408
CA
raytseng Offline
raytseng  Offline

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,408
CA
when you say gallons of fuel it is literally like 2 to 3 gallons.

If you get 25mpg, 200gallons is 5000 extra miles extension on your oci.

So say you extended by 5000miles on less efficient oil, you lost 1% so you are out 2gallons of fuel...

Last edited by raytseng; 06/29/17 03:24 AM.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444506
06/29/17 03:27 AM
06/29/17 03:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline OP
userfriendly  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
Nevertheless, tests show an increase in fuel consumption over time. If the cause was increased viscosity from evaporation loses, that would be understandable. If fuel use per HP/HR or the metric equivalent, increased as the engine oil viscosity decreased from shear, dilution or whatever, then other factors would be at play. Depletion of friction reducing and/or AW additives being a possibility.

Edit; Engine oil is recovered when recycled, fuel is lost.

Last edited by userfriendly; 06/29/17 03:30 AM.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444515
06/29/17 04:32 AM
06/29/17 04:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
In the lifetime of the ILSAC test protocols, I would hazard a guess that way more gasoline has been wasted in trying to demonstrate the fuel economy benefits of engine oil than was ever saved in real life engines. Which is crazy when you think about it!

Also, whilst I can't recall doing any detailed analysis of what goes on during fuel economy tests (outside of the US, FE wasn't that big a requirement and 'my' American equivalents were always rather keen to keep me well away from what they were doing for fear I might be beastly to them!) I wouldn't at all have been surprised to find that declining FE in Phase 2 of the Sequence VIB/VID tests was linked to high evaporative loss causing viscosity to increase, which in turn was linked to the very high Noacks you needed to pass Phase 1 of the test. Quite ridiculous when you say it out loud but I suspect it's not a million miles away from the truth.

Last edited by SonofJoe; 06/29/17 04:33 AM.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444596
06/29/17 07:58 AM
06/29/17 07:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,127
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,127
Illinois
I've been doing 10K OCIs for 39 years and have never noticed any decrease in MPG toward the end of an OC. I have taken several long trips with 7-8K on an OC and the MPG stayed within the norms for my engines.


2007 Ford Fusion 239,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 67K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444632
06/29/17 08:28 AM
06/29/17 08:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,183
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline
Brons2  Offline

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,183
Austin, Texas
The benefits of extended drain for me is quantified in hours not spent in the garage that otherwise could be spent with my family. Or alternately, getting me through the summer so I can change the oil when it's nice out and not 100F. If I burn a little extra gas so be it.

[edit] ok, so another factor is, it feeds my motor oil "hobby" to determine what drain interval I can safely use. Haha.

Last edited by Brons2; 06/29/17 08:30 AM.

2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444650
06/29/17 08:41 AM
06/29/17 08:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline OP
userfriendly  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
Lol, I think most of us spend more time on BITOG & dreaming of changing oil, than actually doing it.

Like moving to a thinner oil, a 1 or 2 percent change in fuel economy would not be noticed, except in a fleet operations.

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: tig1] #4444677
06/29/17 09:00 AM
06/29/17 09:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 8,011
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 8,011
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
In the lifetime of the ILSAC test protocols, I would hazard a guess that way more gasoline has been wasted in trying to demonstrate the fuel economy benefits of engine oil than was ever saved in real life engines. Which is crazy when you think about it!


True! grin

Originally Posted By: tig1
I've been doing 10K OCIs for 39 years and have never noticed any decrease in MPG toward the end of an OC. I have taken several long trips with 7-8K on an OC and the MPG stayed within the norms for my engines.


Same here. I watch it closely, and I'm definitely not getting "worse" gas mileage at the end of my OCI.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444708
06/29/17 09:22 AM
06/29/17 09:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline OP
userfriendly  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
ASTM D7589 allows a max 1% fuel economy loss after 100 hours for a pass. Assume 2% @ 200 hours, the typical oil drain interval, for a 1% average loss from new.
If the 2nd 100 hour interval obtained 1% less fuel economy than the 1st 100 hours, depending on application, changing the oil early may be a net cost savings.

Last edited by userfriendly; 06/29/17 09:23 AM.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444766
06/29/17 10:03 AM
06/29/17 10:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,330
Europe
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
ASTM D7589 allows a max 1% fuel economy loss after 100 hours for a pass. Assume 2% @ 200 hours, the typical oil drain interval, for a 1% average loss from new.
If the 2nd 100 hour interval obtained 1% less fuel economy than the 1st 100 hours, depending on application, changing the oil early may be a net cost savings.


Just bear in mind that the Sequence VID Phase 2 84 hour oil aging is carried out with a fixed bulk oil temperature of 120C. This isn't quite as extreme as something like the Sequence IIIG test but it's probably quite a lot more extreme than most run-of-the-mill driving conditions. Given that 84 hours of cooking & mashing up the oil at 120C is likely to promote some viscocity increase, either from evaporating off the light front-end of the oil or by simple oil oxidation, then you could reasonably expect the FE quality of the oil to be worse at the end of the test. However, that's probably more an artifact of the test itself, rather than something that reflects what you see in real life driving conditions.

Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444784
06/29/17 10:26 AM
06/29/17 10:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline OP
userfriendly  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,817
BC, Canada
Would your 10W20 proposal fix some of those issues?

Edit; I noticed that Havoline 10w30 in 2 flavors and the Delo FA-4 offering just barely make the SAE 30 grade.
It's good to see someone is finally listening and watching bitog posts.

Last edited by userfriendly; 06/29/17 10:30 AM.
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444817
06/29/17 10:59 AM
06/29/17 10:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,231
Buffalo, NY
JTK Offline
JTK  Offline

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,231
Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
ASTM D7589

https://www.astm.org/Standards/D7589.htm

OK, this one costs money, maybe there is a free download to be had in the ether.

Basically fuel economy savings from resource saving engine oils vs a base-line oil disintegrate with age in use.
For example; xW20 resource conserving provides a 2.6% savings when fresh, but only 1.2% after 100 hours in the sequence test.
Other grades drop 1% over the same time.
At some point, there would be no fuel savings, and extending the drain further to save a few quarts of oil, will cost you gallons of fuel.


Based on controlled testing, I'm sure the data is true. It would have to be. Oil is going to break down and change. In real world situations there's too many variables to quantify, but over 10's of 1000s of engines it's probably still true.


2017 Ram 1500 4x4, 3.6L. 2016 Nissan Quest SV (Babe magnet IV)
Re: True economics of extended oil drains [Re: userfriendly] #4444818
06/29/17 10:59 AM
06/29/17 10:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,994
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,994
Oregon
Oil is cheap these days, and I don't consider my vehicles a utility like most; they are part of the family. As such, they get fresh oil every 5K. Both are spotless under the valve cover, and it's worth the peace of mind running them hard when I know the oil is fresh.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: Castrol 0W-40
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