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Study defends green credentials of EV's #4443871
06/28/17 12:06 PM
06/28/17 12:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline OP
supton  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
Ward's

Quote:
Claims that electric vehicles won’t help reduce harmful emissions are flawed, and instead evidence suggests EVs can have a major impact on reducing the pollution traced to vehicles used in everyday life, a University of Michigan study finds.


I dug around, and found the study itself: link to study

Back to Ward's:

Quote:

“Based on the average mix of renewable and nonrenewable electric power sources in the U.S., the average well-to-wheels (greenhouse-gas) emissions for battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) is the lowest, at 214 grams per mile,” the researchers say. “The corresponding values for two different plug-in electric vehicle implementations, PHEV10 and PHEV40, range from 253 to 278 gpm, respectively.

“Gasoline-powered vehicles produce the most GHGs per mile, ranging from 356 to 409 gpm, depending on the specific type of ICE (direct-fuel-injection versus conventional port-fuel injection, respectively), Sivak and Schoettle say.


Quote:
EVs are not only cleaner but also are substantially more efficient than ICE-powered vehicles, the Michigan researchers find.

“BEVs use the least amount of petroleum at 54 Btu/mile, with a typical PHEV40 vehicle model ranking the second-lowest in usage at 1,588 Btu/mile and a typical PHEV10 vehicle model using the third-lowest amount at 2,588 Btu/mile,” Sivak and Schoettle write.

“Predictably, gasoline-powered vehicles use considerably more petroleum per mile, with direct-fuel-injection ICEs averaging 3,791 Btu/mile and traditional fuel-injection ICEs averaging 4,359 Btu/mile. While the PHEV40 consumes 29 times the amount of petroleum a typical BEV consumes, a typical fuel-injected ICE still consumes nearly three times the amount of petroleum as a PHEV40 and around 80 times as much as a BEV,” the UMTRI researchers say.


Quote:
But skepticism toward EVs’ potential environmental benefits remains widespread.

“Cars and trucks are responsible for roughly 24% of U.S. greenhouse gas pollution – nearly 1.7 billion metric tons per year,” an article in Scientific American noted last year. “Because those emissions come from hundreds of millions of tailpipes, this source of pollution seems difficult to control. Shifting it to hundreds of smokestacks at power plants that supply electricity to charge electric cars, therefore, seems like a more effective way to clean up the fleet.”

The UMTRI study estimates electricity currently accounts for just 0.1% of all transportation-related energy consumption in the U.S., while 92% of transportation-related energy consumption still is derived from petroleum.

But modern BEVs’ average fuel economy always has been substantially better than comparable conventional ICE vehicles. Compared to the average fuel economy of 22.8 mpg (10.3 L/100 km) for current ICE vehicles, the average available fuel economy of BEVs is more than 4.5 times higher, averaging the equivalent of 103.0 mpg (2.3 L/100 km).


I did not check the study to see if the GHG per mile took into account renewable energy or not.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4443880
06/28/17 12:12 PM
06/28/17 12:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 183
PA
MarcS Offline
MarcS  Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 183
PA
Most studies I have seen claiming hybrid/ev vehicles are no better in lifetime carbon output tend to be biased against ev's and assume the worst-case scenario as far as production methods and recharging from a plug connected to a coal-fired plant. The better designed studies all show an advantage for ev's that is only widening as the power grid shifts more and more to renewables

Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4443914
06/28/17 12:34 PM
06/28/17 12:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,504
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,504
Iowegia - USA
A comprehensive study should analyze the complete system of variables such as:

Production (cost of raw materials, capital, replacement and upgrades of equipment, efficiencies of each component, etc),

Distribution System,

Cost of EV production including all carbon activities associated with the raw materials for production of each EV component.

Without an efficient production and distribution system, there is no charging of any kind of electric vehicle.


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: MolaKule] #4443929
06/28/17 12:50 PM
06/28/17 12:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A comprehensive study should analyze the complete system of variables such as:

Production (cost of raw materials, capital, replacement and upgrades of equipment, efficiencies of each component, etc),

Distribution System,

Cost of EV production including all carbon activities associated with the raw materials for production of each EV component.

Without an efficient production and distribution system, there is no charging of any kind of electric vehicle.


That works both ways, how many terawatts of energy used in steel production is used in the petroleum industry infrastructure each year?


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 218km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 15km 0W20
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: MolaKule] #4443941
06/28/17 12:57 PM
06/28/17 12:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline OP
supton  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A comprehensive study should analyze the complete system of variables such as:

Production (cost of raw materials, capital, replacement and upgrades of equipment, efficiencies of each component, etc),

Distribution System,

Cost of EV production including all carbon activities associated with the raw materials for production of each EV component.

Without an efficient production and distribution system, there is no charging of any kind of electric vehicle.



Same could have been said of gasoline a century ago. I won't disagree, I think it'll be quite the fight, to update our aging electric infrastructure. Then again: perhaps the auto makers will be the ones to pump money into it, instead of the gov. Think about it: they're under the gun to hit emissions targets. They have plenty of clout and money, and incentive I think. Perhaps the US can kill two birds with one stone. Push EV's hard, and it'll be the transportation sector that "fixes" our electric grid in the process.

To that effect, it looks like the UK is looking into mandating electric charging stations: Ward's

Quote:
The U.K. government introduces legislation requiring that every gas station and motorway service center install electric charging points.

The Queen’s Speech, marking the start of the post-election Parliamentary session, included the introduction of the Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill.

Government briefing papers say the legislation will ensure the U.K. remains at the forefront of developing new technology in electric and automated vehicles.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4443943
06/28/17 12:58 PM
06/28/17 12:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,362
Somewhere
itguy08 Offline
itguy08  Offline
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,362
Somewhere
I'll take Devil's Advocate:

Quote:
The following well-to-wheels calculations use the GREET model (2015 release)for model year 2015 passenger cars to calculate greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and petroleum usage during vehicle operation (ANL, 2015). (Results do not include GHG emissions or petroleum usage during the vehicle manufacturing process.)


I wonder why that is? Could it be because the mining for the rare-Earth magnets, battery metals, etc, and shipping them is pretty GHG heavy?

Last edited by itguy08; 06/28/17 01:02 PM.
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4443951
06/28/17 01:03 PM
06/28/17 01:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,578
Idaho
CT8 Online content
CT8  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,578
Idaho
The results of studies always reflect those who paid for the study. Where does/Will the electricity come from. Electric cars have their purposes. The pollution is generated elsewhere so the people that think they are saving the earth are just fooling themselves.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: MolaKule] #4444082
06/28/17 03:14 PM
06/28/17 03:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A comprehensive study should analyze the complete system of variables such as:

Production (cost of raw materials, capital, replacement and upgrades of equipment, efficiencies of each component, etc),

Distribution System,

Cost of EV production including all carbon activities associated with the raw materials for production of each EV component.

Without an efficient production and distribution system, there is no charging of any kind of electric vehicle.



In addition, I'd like a study that also compares buying a used car/truck. Especially compared to the total cost of production for a new vehicle of either type ... Recycling existing stock and keeping them on the road longer lowers the mining, refining, and other production costs, and the final disposal cost.


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: BrocLuno] #4444088
06/28/17 03:23 PM
06/28/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,340
Central Virginia
Silverado12 Offline
Silverado12  Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,340
Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
A comprehensive study should analyze the complete system of variables such as:

Production (cost of raw materials, capital, replacement and upgrades of equipment, efficiencies of each component, etc),

Distribution System,

Cost of EV production including all carbon activities associated with the raw materials for production of each EV component.

Without an efficient production and distribution system, there is no charging of any kind of electric vehicle.



In addition, I'd like a study that also compares buying a used car/truck. Especially compared to the total cost of production for a new vehicle of either type ... Recycling existing stock and keeping them on the road longer lowers the mining, refining, and other production costs, and the final disposal cost.


Agree. I saved my 2000 Mustang from the junkyard due to the crash damage. Total environmental damage was the manufacture of 2 fenders and paint. Of course, it's not the best example of saving the environment as it only gets 19-26 mpg.


12 Chevy Silverado ext. cab LS, 2WD 4.3 auto
18 Mustang GT 5.0 auto
07 Harley Dyna Street Bob 96 c.i. 6 sp.
00 Mustang GT auto
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: CT8] #4444097
06/28/17 03:31 PM
06/28/17 03:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Brons2 Offline
Brons2  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,135
Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: CT8
The results of studies always reflect those who paid for the study. Where does/Will the electricity come from. Electric cars have their purposes. The pollution is generated elsewhere so the people that think they are saving the earth are just fooling themselves.


Not unlike, the posts of BITOG users tend to reflect their own personal bias.

Fully 10% of US grid power in March came from renewables. Petroleum will never go above 0%.


2012 Hyundai Sonata GLS 6MT 2.4GDI, ProDS 10w30, XG9688 filter, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander SEL 2.4 CVT, Factory fill still.
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4444112
06/28/17 03:46 PM
06/28/17 03:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
It depends on where you live. Some states barely emit any carbon in the atmosphere per watt of electricity you put in your electric car, while other states still use a high percentage of coal (high carbon) powerplants.


That map was from 4 years ago, and now there are even more natural gas powerplants, but its still about the same.
In some of the worst carbon (coal-fired) states, its actually better to drive a decent hybrid car, non-plugin, or something like a 1.0L Ecoboost car, for high fuel economy. In half of states, its better to charge up an electric car, which got its electricity from wind, solar, natural gas, nuclear, hydro, maybe a small percent from coal.

Of course the problem with electric cars is range and recharge availability/time. Few people can take long trips in them!

Conclusion: Hybrids are usually the "greenest" lowest carbon which are still practical for everyday use & long road trips too.

Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: supton] #4444118
06/28/17 03:54 PM
06/28/17 03:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,501
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,501
...
The PNW has a high proportion of their electricity from hydroelectric sources. (Dams). That is most likely the reason that corner of the country scored well.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: PimTac] #4444137
06/28/17 04:34 PM
06/28/17 04:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,540
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,540
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The PNW has a high proportion of their electricity from hydroelectric sources. (Dams). That is most likely the reason that corner of the country scored well.


https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7046-hydroelectric-powers-dirty-secret-revealed/

Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: Shannow] #4444159
06/28/17 05:10 PM
06/28/17 05:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
Interesting analysis. Still, a tree's leaves are seasonal anyway, and trees die normally too. Maybe they took all that into account.

"This is because large amounts of carbon tied up in trees and other plants are released when the reservoir is initially flooded and the plants rot. Then after this first pulse of decay, plant matter settling on the reservoir’s bottom decomposes without oxygen, resulting in a build-up of dissolved methane. This is released into the atmosphere when water passes through the dam’s turbines."


It would be good to capture the methane from the water before it gets into the turbines, pipe the nat gas off, and burn it to gen electricity and/or pipe it to a town's water heaters...... Might be a way to do that. Burning natural methane gas is low-ish carbon, like half a coal burning plant does.

Re: Study defends green credentials of EV's [Re: CT8] #4444182
06/28/17 05:34 PM
06/28/17 05:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,420
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,420
Virginia
I agree CT8. When a certain individual starts flying commercial instead of their private jet, sells a ten thousand square foot home and lives in a 1200 square foot living space then I will believe what that person promotes.
It would be like PTL preachers telling everyone else how to live while having fun with escorts and drinking a case of beer a day... Live out what you say you believe. Be real and serious about it.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Mobil Super 5w30 Wix 57356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
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