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#4442901 - 06/27/17 03:02 PM Mountain, Snowflake?
Camprunner Offline


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 1032
Loc: MA.
Is the rubber compound different on an A/T tire that has the severe snow service Mountain on the snowflake symbol then an A/T tire without it?

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#4442918 - 06/27/17 03:26 PM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2548
Loc: MN
Your hunch is right. No way you can meet Snowflake performance without softer rubber.

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#4442988 - 06/27/17 04:51 PM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: oil_film_movies]
Rand Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 12638
Loc: NE,Ohio
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Your hunch is right. No way you can meet Snowflake performance without softer rubber.


Not necessarily.

The basic standard is only 10% more traction than a reference tire.

Many all-terrains can meet it... many werent even tested for it previously.

Now if you want a Superior winter tire.. then yes totally different rubber compound.

The General Grabber AT 2or BFG all-terrains both meet the mountain/snowflake without being "soft".

However, they aren't nearly as good on ice and packed snow as real winter tires
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#4443149 - 06/27/17 08:16 PM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Rand]
HangFire Offline


Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 2506
Loc: Central Maryland
Originally Posted By: Rand
The General Grabber AT 2or BFG all-terrains both meet the mountain/snowflake without being "soft".

However, they aren't nearly as good on ice and packed snow as real winter tires

I can confirm this, I have "real" winter tires at BFG AT/KO'S. The BFG's do OK in snow and ice, the Winter tires are awesome. The A/T's only pull ahead when you're plowing through heavy snow.
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#4443573 - 06/28/17 09:19 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
CapriRacer Online   content


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3367
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.
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#4443632 - 06/28/17 10:06 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
mightymousetech Offline


Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 1443
Loc: Ontario, Canada
There are several all-season tires that have the snowflake rating. In North America they are usually called "all-weather" tires.
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#4443676 - 06/28/17 10:52 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: CapriRacer]
Camprunner Offline


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 1032
Loc: MA.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.


So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?

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#4443685 - 06/28/17 11:01 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
IndyIan Offline


Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 9090
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.


So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?

Probably there are, for A/T tires with a lot of sipes, putting the snowflake on the tire is a marketing decision more than anything.
On ice, consumer reports tests all all-season and winter rated tires the same way so I believe you can compare them directly. There are a few all-season tires that out perform A/T winter rated tires by quite a bit on ice.
I put some A/T winter rated tires on the CRV and they do work pretty well in snow, but on ice they are nothing special.
I guess the tire industry likes having a low threshold for winter rating tires, put it would make sense to have the test hard enough to mean something.
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#4444610 - 06/29/17 08:11 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
CapriRacer Online   content


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3367
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?


Not only is it possible, but the use of the symbol is entirely voluntary. There are A/T tires out there that do not have the symbol and can pass the test easily. In some places (Europe is what I heard), the use of that symbol is looked down on (Not Invented Here?), so many tires purposefully do not use the symbol.
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#4444792 - 06/29/17 10:35 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner]
FlyNavyP3 Offline


Registered: 07/04/16
Posts: 1407
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
The severe snow rating symbol also has a requirement for tire void size, so a tire may have more traction than the reference tire but lack adequate void size to meet the minimum criteria yet still offer excellent winter traction. Both criteria must be met to use the symbol. However there is no requirement to use the symbol even if all criteria is met, however I'm not sure why a manufacturer wouldn't claim it if the tire passed the test.
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#4444852 - 06/29/17 11:37 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: CapriRacer]
Jetronic Offline


Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 3653
Loc: down in the park
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?


Not only is it possible, but the use of the symbol is entirely voluntary. There are A/T tires out there that do not have the symbol and can pass the test easily. In some places (Europe is what I heard), the use of that symbol is looked down on (Not Invented Here?), so many tires purposefully do not use the symbol.


You're wrong.

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...
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#4445551 - 06/29/17 11:57 PM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Jetronic]
Onug Offline


Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 344
Loc: Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.

When I shopping for A/T tires a few months ago, the shops without "snowflake" tires would say they're only marginally better and their tires are just as good. I got the impression the snowflake rating is a "nice to have" feature, but without all the tires being tested, it's not a good apples-to-apples comparision.
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#4445654 - 06/30/17 06:51 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Jetronic]
CapriRacer Online   content


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3367
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
You're wrong. Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I stand corrected. Thank you. I should have looked this up rather than rely on my memory. Perhaps what I am remembering applies to AT tires and not winter tires?


Edited by CapriRacer (06/30/17 06:53 AM)
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#4445663 - 06/30/17 07:01 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Onug]
2K2AcuraTL Online   content


Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 458
Loc: Ottawa, Ont CANADA
Originally Posted By: Onug
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.
.


You are correct.. winter tires are legislated Prov of Quebec.
Ontario is very close to be as well..
j.
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#4445675 - 06/30/17 07:21 AM Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: 2K2AcuraTL]
mightymousetech Offline


Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 1443
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: Onug
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.
.


You are correct.. winter tires are legislated Prov of Quebec.
Ontario is very close to be as well..
j.


Will never happen in Ontario. Too bad, I wish it would.
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