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Mountain, Snowflake? #4442901
06/27/17 03:02 PM
06/27/17 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,059
MA.
Camprunner Offline OP
Camprunner  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,059
MA.
Is the rubber compound different on an A/T tire that has the severe snow service Mountain on the snowflake symbol then an A/T tire without it?

Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4442918
06/27/17 03:26 PM
06/27/17 03:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
Your hunch is right. No way you can meet Snowflake performance without softer rubber.

Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4442988
06/27/17 04:51 PM
06/27/17 04:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,901
NE,Ohio
Rand Offline
Rand  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,901
NE,Ohio
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Your hunch is right. No way you can meet Snowflake performance without softer rubber.


Not necessarily.

The basic standard is only 10% more traction than a reference tire.

Many all-terrains can meet it... many werent even tested for it previously.

Now if you want a Superior winter tire.. then yes totally different rubber compound.

The General Grabber AT 2or BFG all-terrains both meet the mountain/snowflake without being "soft".

However, they aren't nearly as good on ice and packed snow as real winter tires


2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Rand] #4443149
06/27/17 08:16 PM
06/27/17 08:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,531
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,531
Central Maryland
Originally Posted By: Rand
The General Grabber AT 2or BFG all-terrains both meet the mountain/snowflake without being "soft".

However, they aren't nearly as good on ice and packed snow as real winter tires

I can confirm this, I have "real" winter tires at BFG AT/KO'S. The BFG's do OK in snow and ice, the Winter tires are awesome. The A/T's only pull ahead when you're plowing through heavy snow.


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4443573
06/28/17 09:19 AM
06/28/17 09:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4443632
06/28/17 10:06 AM
06/28/17 10:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
There are several all-season tires that have the snowflake rating. In North America they are usually called "all-weather" tires.


Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: CapriRacer] #4443676
06/28/17 10:52 AM
06/28/17 10:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,059
MA.
Camprunner Offline OP
Camprunner  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,059
MA.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.


So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?

Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4443685
06/28/17 11:01 AM
06/28/17 11:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,192
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,192
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Not only can you pass the Mountain/Snowflake test without changing tread compound, the earliest tests performed with this test revealed a kind of glaring error - that some All Terrain tires and some All Season tires would pass the test without any changes. Since the intent of the test was to separate winter tires from non-winter tires, this was kind of an unintended, but expected, result - and by "expected" I mean the guys developing the test knew that this would happen as tread pattern has a great effect on snow traction.


So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?

Probably there are, for A/T tires with a lot of sipes, putting the snowflake on the tire is a marketing decision more than anything.
On ice, consumer reports tests all all-season and winter rated tires the same way so I believe you can compare them directly. There are a few all-season tires that out perform A/T winter rated tires by quite a bit on ice.
I put some A/T winter rated tires on the CRV and they do work pretty well in snow, but on ice they are nothing special.
I guess the tire industry likes having a low threshold for winter rating tires, put it would make sense to have the test hard enough to mean something.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 210km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 10km 0W20 "bulk subaru" whatever that is
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4444610
06/29/17 08:11 AM
06/29/17 08:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?


Not only is it possible, but the use of the symbol is entirely voluntary. There are A/T tires out there that do not have the symbol and can pass the test easily. In some places (Europe is what I heard), the use of that symbol is looked down on (Not Invented Here?), so many tires purposefully do not use the symbol.


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Camprunner] #4444792
06/29/17 10:35 AM
06/29/17 10:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,482
Jacksonville, FL
FlyNavyP3 Offline
FlyNavyP3  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,482
Jacksonville, FL
The severe snow rating symbol also has a requirement for tire void size, so a tire may have more traction than the reference tire but lack adequate void size to meet the minimum criteria yet still offer excellent winter traction. Both criteria must be met to use the symbol. However there is no requirement to use the symbol even if all criteria is met, however I'm not sure why a manufacturer wouldn't claim it if the tire passed the test.


Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: CapriRacer] #4444852
06/29/17 11:37 AM
06/29/17 11:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Jetronic Offline
Jetronic  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
So is it possible today to have lets say a truck A/T tire with no Mountain Snowflake rating actually do better in the snow then one with with the rating?


Not only is it possible, but the use of the symbol is entirely voluntary. There are A/T tires out there that do not have the symbol and can pass the test easily. In some places (Europe is what I heard), the use of that symbol is looked down on (Not Invented Here?), so many tires purposefully do not use the symbol.


You're wrong.

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w30
Hankook Ventus Prime 2 215/50R17 (front)
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Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Jetronic] #4445551
06/29/17 11:57 PM
06/29/17 11:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 367
Washington, USA
Onug Offline
Onug  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 367
Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.

When I shopping for A/T tires a few months ago, the shops without "snowflake" tires would say they're only marginally better and their tires are just as good. I got the impression the snowflake rating is a "nice to have" feature, but without all the tires being tested, it's not a good apples-to-apples comparision.


2016 F-150 3.5L Ecoboost
Current Oil: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Fram Ultra filter
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Jetronic] #4445654
06/30/17 06:51 AM
06/30/17 06:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,421
Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
You're wrong. Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I stand corrected. Thank you. I should have looked this up rather than rely on my memory. Perhaps what I am remembering applies to AT tires and not winter tires?

Last edited by CapriRacer; 06/30/17 06:53 AM.

CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: Onug] #4445663
06/30/17 07:01 AM
06/30/17 07:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 463
Ottawa, Ont CANADA
2K2AcuraTL Offline
2K2AcuraTL  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 463
Ottawa, Ont CANADA
Originally Posted By: Onug
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.
.


You are correct.. winter tires are legislated Prov of Quebec.
Ontario is very close to be as well..
j.


02 Acura TL-P
13 Acura MDX-Elite
Both on PP and PP Ultra & Petro-Can Duradrive synth ATF

Re: Mountain, Snowflake? [Re: 2K2AcuraTL] #4445675
06/30/17 07:21 AM
06/30/17 07:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: Onug
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

Here in Europe it's a legal requirement to have tyres with the symbol during winter, in some countries...


I seem to remember Quebec having a mandatory winter tire law and I thought the snowflake was required...but I'm going off memory here.
.


You are correct.. winter tires are legislated Prov of Quebec.
Ontario is very close to be as well..
j.


Will never happen in Ontario. Too bad, I wish it would.


Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL

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