Recent Topics
Car Sales Scammers on Letgo
by ZZman
06/17/18 04:18 PM
Air shocks or Timbren for trailer towing ?
by Oldtom
06/17/18 04:10 PM
Which coil for a 2002 Focus Zetec?
by slacktide_bitog
06/17/18 04:07 PM
Blink -Roadside assistance, any experience?
by MoneyJohn
06/17/18 03:22 PM
Some garage art!
by ls1mike
06/17/18 03:12 PM
California Law
by PiperOne
06/17/18 02:37 PM
honda vs tyc a/c condenser?
by researcher
06/17/18 02:31 PM
To all the Fathers out there.
by rollinpete
06/17/18 01:37 PM
'14 Mercedes E350 Coupe - Castrol Edge 0w40
by FlyPenFly
06/17/18 01:08 PM
2007 Chrysler 4.0L SOHC engine - why 10w-30 req'd?
by 92saturnsl2
06/17/18 12:54 PM
you can see my crack when I dismount a tire
by eljefino
06/17/18 12:44 PM
Mobil 1 Synthetic LV ATF HP
by Cup of Joe
06/17/18 11:44 AM
Coolant Flush - '07 Pacifica 4.0L
by 92saturnsl2
06/17/18 11:34 AM
Pan Drop or Fluid Through Dipstick
by TheLawnRanger
06/17/18 11:32 AM
Recommended weight BMW 550i m- Sport
by WatsaDisplayName
06/17/18 11:16 AM
how to list truck specs
by red7404
06/17/18 11:08 AM
Dealer new car prep
by mclasser
06/17/18 09:36 AM
Older Desktop Question
by GrtArtiste
06/17/18 09:36 AM
Along for the ride
by onetwoothreee
06/17/18 09:05 AM
Very Disappointed With Flotool Strap Wrench.
by George7941
06/17/18 08:29 AM
Newest Members
omatik, revhappy, WatsaDisplayName, ielts247, Thefilterguy
65252 Registered Users
Who's Online
96 registered (AVB, 4WD, A310, 2015_PSD, 87sammy, 9050lx, 14 invisible), 1482 Guests and 34 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65252 Members
67 Forums
285476 Topics
4764375 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#4442189 - 06/26/17 06:25 PM Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2985
Loc: Los Angeles, California
This is a good summary by Amsoil of a SAE paper (PDF link) on how engine wear correlates with oil-filter efficiency.

Engine wear is especially affected by oil-filter efficiency in diesel engines but the effect is also strong in gasoline engines. The long story short, it's very important to have a high-efficiency oil filter if you want to keep the engine wear as little as possible. Since the engine wear is caused by particles ranging in size mostly from 2 to 25 microns, removing such particles necessitates a premium synthetic or synthetic-blend oil filter with a high-efficiency micron rating.

See the table and graph for the efficiency ratings of the oil filters and the two charts for the engine-wear rates. Note that higher-efficiency oil filters were used for the diesel engine.



_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4442208 - 06/26/17 06:38 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
AirgunSavant Offline


Registered: 07/22/15
Posts: 3772
Loc: MD
There is concern from some that glass enhanced filter media residue may also
result in increased wear as well since it is very abrasive itself. I believe Fleetguard
does mention this in their literature.

Top
#4442209 - 06/26/17 06:38 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
Reddy45 Offline


Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 2955
Loc: USA
What concerns me is that new cars roll off the assembly line with what are essentially lowest bidder OEM oil filters. Those cars then sit on a lot and are short tripped and run hard during test drives until the car is sold.

By the time you get the car, the damage has been done. Wear metals are almost always high during break in.

Top
#4442212 - 06/26/17 06:43 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Reddy45]
AirgunSavant Offline


Registered: 07/22/15
Posts: 3772
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
What concerns me is that new cars roll off the assembly line with what are essentially lowest bidder OEM oil filters. Those cars then sit on a lot and are short tripped and run hard during test drives until the car is sold.

By the time you get the car, the damage has been done. Wear metals are almost always high during break in.


At least Ford factory installed new car filters are better then you get later on from MC.

Top
#4442214 - 06/26/17 06:44 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Reddy45]
mitsuman47 Offline


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 271
Loc: East Texas
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
What concerns me is that new cars roll off the assembly line with what are essentially lowest bidder OEM oil filters. Those cars then sit on a lot and are short tripped and run hard during test drives until the car is sold.

By the time you get the car, the damage has been done. Wear metals are almost always high during break in.


In regards to this scenario (and with Honda's especially) I've wondered if one should change the factory filter to a fram ultra or similar as soon as the car makes it home. Honda recommends to leave the factory fill in for the full OCI as indicated by the MM, which is fine. But the Honda A02 filter is basically a rock catcher.

Top
#4442219 - 06/26/17 07:00 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
E150GT Offline


Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 1088
Loc: San Antonio, TX
lets everybody go get a bypass filter setup
_________________________
1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD - 100k
1995 F150 XL 4.9 reg cab 5MT - 250k 5w30
2016 Mazda6 Touring 6MT - 56k 10w30

Top
#4442222 - 06/26/17 07:02 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 6213
Loc: MI
The SAE paper proves that larger particles cause more wear than smaller particles. One has to ask if the testing correlates to real world engine operation.

It doesn't.

Top
#4442260 - 06/26/17 07:55 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
TexasVaquero Offline


Registered: 05/31/17
Posts: 127
Loc: South Texas Rancho
I use M1 EP filters. Good stuff.
_________________________
2014 NISSAN VERSA 5spd M/T- M1 EP 5w30 and M1 EP Filter. 5k OCI.
2011 CHEVY IMPALA 3.5ltrs - M1 HM 5w30 and M1 EP Filter. 3k OCI.

Top
#4442262 - 06/26/17 07:56 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4320
Loc: Taiwan
"the threat they pose is diminished since they are still larger than many of the clearances within an engine. Their size will not allow them to enter the contact areas..."

Trying to picture how that would work, and can't.

Lets say a particle is small enough to get into the oil pump, but arrives somewhere where its too big. Anywhere it arrives it seems likely to be a problem, either due to blockage, abrasion, or both.

For example, say it gets to a bearing but is too big to enter. It can be too big only because it is in contact with a rotating shaft jourmal surface, and it is partially blocking the oilway where it enters the bearing. This does not seem a benign situation.

Top
#4442275 - 06/26/17 08:15 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Gokhan]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15679
Loc: OH
Your opening post sounds good, as is often the case with your topics, but when subjected to the reality test it makes no sense.
First off, gasoline engines have been running 200K+ for decades using no more than OEM rocks-catcher filters.
Second, the particle range you suggest is huge and there is no full flow filter whether labeled as having synthetic media or not that is particularly efficient in capturing particles smaller than twenty microns or so.
Multiple pass efficiency is of little importance since each pass exposes the bearings to the particles the oil filter didn't catch on the first pass.
Lots of folks in warm, mostly dry places like the one in which you live have old Toyotas just like yours with as many or more miles.
The difference is that they worry about neither oil nor oil filters.
They just drive their old cars and worry about the many more important things most of us experience in life.
_________________________
17 Forester 12K MSS 0W-20
12 Accord LX 86K PP 5W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i

Top
#4442311 - 06/26/17 08:41 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: mitsuman47]
Danh Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1744
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: mitsuman47
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
What concerns me is that new cars roll off the assembly line with what are essentially lowest bidder OEM oil filters. Those cars then sit on a lot and are short tripped and run hard during test drives until the car is sold.

By the time you get the car, the damage has been done. Wear metals are almost always high during break in.


In regards to this scenario (and with Honda's especially) I've wondered if one should change the factory filter to a fram ultra or similar as soon as the car makes it home. Honda recommends to leave the factory fill in for the full OCI as indicated by the MM, which is fine. But the Honda A02 filter is basically a rock catcher.


Actually, Honda recommends a filter change very other oil change, which could be 20,000 miles or more. And of course Hondas are notorious for early engine failure and short life spans...

Top
#4442324 - 06/26/17 08:49 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: fdcg27]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 17761
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Second, the particle range you suggest is huge and there is no full flow filter whether labeled as having synthetic media or not that is particularly efficient in capturing particles smaller than twenty microns or so.

Multiple pass efficiency is of little importance since each pass exposes the bearings to the particles the oil filter didn't catch on the first pass.


Filters rated at 99%+ @ 20 microns are catching quite a pretty decent amount of the particles below 20 microns (ie, FU said to be 80% @ 5 microns). Filters rated at 50% @ 20 microns are letting many more sub 20 micron particles through.

A 99% @ 20 micron filter will stop a much higher amount of particles from making multiple trips around the oiling system, which also helps reduce wear.

Top
#4442331 - 06/26/17 08:54 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: doitmyself]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 17761
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
The SAE paper proves that larger particles cause more wear than smaller particles.


The paper said 5 to 25 micron particles create the most wear ... that's not the "larger particles".

Top
#4442339 - 06/26/17 08:59 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Ducked]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 17761
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Ducked
"the threat they pose is diminished since they are still larger than many of the clearances within an engine. Their size will not allow them to enter the contact areas..."

Trying to picture how that would work, and can't.

Lets say a particle is small enough to get into the oil pump, but arrives somewhere where its too big. Anywhere it arrives it seems likely to be a problem, either due to blockage, abrasion, or both.

For example, say it gets to a bearing but is too big to enter. It can be too big only because it is in contact with a rotating shaft jourmal surface, and it is partially blocking the oilway where it enters the bearing. This does not seem a benign situation.


The particles that are too large to go through a running journal bearing clearance (which is around 5 to 10 microns oil film thickness when the engine is running) probably get spit out the sides of the bearing. Since the particle isn't being "smashed" between two surfaces, then it probably isn't going to cause much if any damage.

Top
#4442359 - 06/26/17 09:13 PM Re: Wear vs. oil-filter efficiency: SAE/Amsoil paper [Re: Danh]
mitsuman47 Offline


Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 271
Loc: East Texas
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: mitsuman47
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
What concerns me is that new cars roll off the assembly line with what are essentially lowest bidder OEM oil filters. Those cars then sit on a lot and are short tripped and run hard during test drives until the car is sold.

By the time you get the car, the damage has been done. Wear metals are almost always high during break in.


In regards to this scenario (and with Honda's especially) I've wondered if one should change the factory filter to a fram ultra or similar as soon as the car makes it home. Honda recommends to leave the factory fill in for the full OCI as indicated by the MM, which is fine. But the Honda A02 filter is basically a rock catcher.


Actually, Honda recommends a filter change very other oil change, which could be 20,000 miles or more. And of course Hondas are notorious for early engine failure and short life spans...


I bet Fernando Alonso has an opinion on that... grin2

On a more serious note...please see my sig. I understand that Hondas are known to last, and I'm also very familiar with their maintenance schedules.

But, most of us are on this site for the sole purpose of doing what we can to make our vehicles last longer and "run like new" for a higher/longer amount of miles/time.

So, with the fram ultra being a filter that can handle long change intervals AND has a significantly higher efficiency, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the owner may see benefits if they plan to keep the vehicle for the long term?

Are ANY manufacturers "notorious for early engine failure and short life spans" directly caused by oil filter efficiency, or lack thereof? And if not, why are companies still doing tests on the benefits of higher efficiency filters?
_________________________
'05 Civic 5MT ~380k mi
Any synthetic on sale, Fram Ultra, Fram air filter. 10k mi OCI

Honda HRX217 Mobil 1 HM 5w-30

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >