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Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise #4439616
06/23/17 03:39 PM
06/23/17 03:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
HoosierJeeper Offline OP
HoosierJeeper  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
Did an oil change on my Liberty last Friday and have since noticed a slight bottom end knock upon startup. Not the usual start up rattle thing that happens if it sits for a few days. Can be warm or cold. Goes away after I assume full oil pressure is reached. Anything different about an Ultra that could cause it? Dead silent otherwise. Never noticed it with the Tough Guard.


15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439649
06/23/17 04:16 PM
06/23/17 04:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,446
Toronto Canada
WobblyElvis Offline
WobblyElvis  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,446
Toronto Canada
It could simply be that the new filter is defective. The drain back valve may not be seating properly. Nothing to do with the change of brand or model of filter. or you did not notice this noise before.

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439653
06/23/17 04:19 PM
06/23/17 04:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the oil or filter used.

I also notice different sounds after fresh oil changes for a few minutes during the warm-up period -- kind of like you're dipping things in a fluid. I don't know the reason but it's probably because the oil is so fresh and therefore there is so little boundary friction and it's a good thing.

In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439660
06/23/17 04:26 PM
06/23/17 04:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 121
Long Island, N.Y.
incognito_2u Offline
incognito_2u  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 121
Long Island, N.Y.
Is the filter in question an xg3600?


2006 Jeep Commander 3.7 V6 -109k (PUP/XG3600)
2006 Toyota Corolla 1.8 VVTi -77k (PPHM/XG3600)
1999 Toyota Corolla 1.8 -78k (PUP/XG4386)
1998 Toyota Corolla 1.8 -62k (PUP/XG4386)
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439665
06/23/17 04:32 PM
06/23/17 04:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,462
KingCake Offline
KingCake  Offline
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,462
Oil filters don't cause main bearing knock. Worn out main bearings cause main bearing knock.

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439676
06/23/17 04:42 PM
06/23/17 04:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
It might be worthwhile to swap that filter out. The Ultra would still be good if you can use it elsewhere.


"In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently."

Huh....What? Normally, a new oil change sounds quieter. Are you saying the sounds are the oil shearing?


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac] #4439681
06/23/17 04:53 PM
06/23/17 04:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
It might be worthwhile to swap that filter out. The Ultra would still be good if you can use it elsewhere.
"In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently."
Huh....What? Normally, a new oil change sounds quieter. Are you saying the sounds are the oil shearing?

No, you never understand what I am saying. wink

Unsheared and sheared VII molecules have different sound-damping affects. Therefore, a fresh oil may sound differently. In addition less friction of fresh oil also results in less sound damping.

Of course, when an oil is really deteriorated after a long OCI, it will start sounding differently as well.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439698
06/23/17 05:15 PM
06/23/17 05:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
I'm not the only one.


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439701
06/23/17 05:17 PM
06/23/17 05:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
HoosierJeeper Offline OP
HoosierJeeper  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
Yep it's an XG3600. I'd be shocked if this had any engine issues...like I said it was fine before. I have about 80 miles on the oil so far. So it might go away?

If it were doing it even once warmed up I'd be concerned.


15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439708
06/23/17 05:27 PM
06/23/17 05:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline
OneEyeJack  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
You can try the Mobil 1 equivalent, M1-209 or the M1-209A. That should eliminate the oil filter as the cause.

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac] #4439709
06/23/17 05:29 PM
06/23/17 05:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not the only one.

You'd better start education yourself then. You're on a steep learning curve here.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: Gokhan] #4439715
06/23/17 05:37 PM
06/23/17 05:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
I'm not a science major but doing 5 minutes of research on the web regarding molecular sounds, I read that you need fine instruments. These are not something the human ear can pick up.

Let's not derail the thread further. The OP has a serious issue and we should concentrate on solving that. I still say swap the filter. Nothing will be wasted as he can save the Ultra since it has less than 100 miles on it. If a engine starts knocking right after a oil change, that is what I would suspect first. There is too much coincidence here.


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac] #4439726
06/23/17 05:52 PM
06/23/17 05:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not a science major but doing 5 minutes of research on the web regarding molecular sounds, I read that you need fine instruments. These are not something the human ear can pick up.

Let's not derail the thread further. The OP has a serious issue and we should concentrate on solving that. I still say swap the filter. Nothing will be wasted as he can save the Ultra since it has less than 100 miles on it. If a engine starts knocking right after a oil change, that is what I would suspect first. There is too much coincidence here.

Again, I'm not talking about molecular sound -- if there is such a thing and, in fact, there isn't. Sound is propagated through a media. The molecules in the media and the structure of these molecules affect how the sound is propagated. It's just like you don't expect wood and steel to propagate the sound in the same manner.

One of the claims of this patent (link) is that the use of a VII in an oil reduces the noise. I'm not saying that this is entirely the reason why a fresh oil sounds differently than a used oil but it could be one of the reasons.

We don't know if the OP has a major issue. He describes it as a "slight bottom-end knock", which could be anything, and it goes away after a while. A quality oil filter like Fram Ultra shouldn't be an issue and there is really nothing in it to be defective to cause engine knocking. It's not an ADBV issue as he said. But then if he's really worried, he can temporarily replace it with a cheap oil filter and see what happens and then put it back.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439733
06/23/17 06:06 PM
06/23/17 06:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
HoosierJeeper Offline OP
HoosierJeeper  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,278
WI
I think I'm going to try swapping back to a Tough Guard or even a Wix.

That new oil thing intrigues me though, I've never noticed that with fresher oil but up until I joined here I can't say I ever would've noticed and maybe I just haven't noticed in years past. Do you guys think there's any harm in letting it ride for a bit and seeing what happens?


15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)
Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper] #4439738
06/23/17 06:21 PM
06/23/17 06:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,662
OH
SatinSilver Offline
SatinSilver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,662
OH
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
I think I'm going to try swapping back to a Tough Guard or even a Wix.


Good idea and I'd be curious to see if the noise persists after a new filter is put on. Just ST from WM for less than $3. Peace of mind, priceless.

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