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#4439616 - 06/23/17 03:39 PM Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise
HoosierJeeper Offline


Registered: 11/23/16
Posts: 1276
Loc: WI
Did an oil change on my Liberty last Friday and have since noticed a slight bottom end knock upon startup. Not the usual start up rattle thing that happens if it sits for a few days. Can be warm or cold. Goes away after I assume full oil pressure is reached. Anything different about an Ultra that could cause it? Dead silent otherwise. Never noticed it with the Tough Guard.
_________________________
15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)

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#4439649 - 06/23/17 04:16 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
WobblyElvis Offline


Registered: 09/23/14
Posts: 1341
Loc: Toronto Canada
It could simply be that the new filter is defective. The drain back valve may not be seating properly. Nothing to do with the change of brand or model of filter. or you did not notice this noise before.

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#4439653 - 06/23/17 04:19 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the oil or filter used.

I also notice different sounds after fresh oil changes for a few minutes during the warm-up period -- kind of like you're dipping things in a fluid. I don't know the reason but it's probably because the oil is so fresh and therefore there is so little boundary friction and it's a good thing.

In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#4439660 - 06/23/17 04:26 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
incognito_2u Offline


Registered: 12/15/16
Posts: 113
Loc: Long Island, N.Y.
Is the filter in question an xg3600?
_________________________
2006 Jeep Commander 3.7 V6 -108k (PUP/XG3600)
2006 Toyota Corolla 1.8 VVTi -76k (PPHM/XG3600)
1999 Toyota Corolla 1.8 -77k (PUP/XG4386)

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#4439665 - 06/23/17 04:32 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
KingCake Offline


Registered: 11/19/15
Posts: 1462
Oil filters don't cause main bearing knock. Worn out main bearings cause main bearing knock.

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#4439676 - 06/23/17 04:42 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4213
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
It might be worthwhile to swap that filter out. The Ultra would still be good if you can use it elsewhere.


"In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently."

Huh....What? Normally, a new oil change sounds quieter. Are you saying the sounds are the oil shearing?
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4439681 - 06/23/17 04:53 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
It might be worthwhile to swap that filter out. The Ultra would still be good if you can use it elsewhere.
"In addition the VII starts shearing immediately after fresh oil starts being used for the first time. Therefore, perhaps a fresh oil with completely unsheared VII sounds differently."
Huh....What? Normally, a new oil change sounds quieter. Are you saying the sounds are the oil shearing?

No, you never understand what I am saying. wink

Unsheared and sheared VII molecules have different sound-damping affects. Therefore, a fresh oil may sound differently. In addition less friction of fresh oil also results in less sound damping.

Of course, when an oil is really deteriorated after a long OCI, it will start sounding differently as well.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#4439698 - 06/23/17 05:15 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4213
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
I'm not the only one.
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4439701 - 06/23/17 05:17 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
HoosierJeeper Offline


Registered: 11/23/16
Posts: 1276
Loc: WI
Yep it's an XG3600. I'd be shocked if this had any engine issues...like I said it was fine before. I have about 80 miles on the oil so far. So it might go away?

If it were doing it even once warmed up I'd be concerned.
_________________________
15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)

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#4439708 - 06/23/17 05:27 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 7471
Loc: S California
You can try the Mobil 1 equivalent, M1-209 or the M1-209A. That should eliminate the oil filter as the cause.

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#4439709 - 06/23/17 05:29 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not the only one.

You'd better start education yourself then. You're on a steep learning curve here.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#4439715 - 06/23/17 05:37 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: Gokhan]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4213
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
I'm not a science major but doing 5 minutes of research on the web regarding molecular sounds, I read that you need fine instruments. These are not something the human ear can pick up.

Let's not derail the thread further. The OP has a serious issue and we should concentrate on solving that. I still say swap the filter. Nothing will be wasted as he can save the Ultra since it has less than 100 miles on it. If a engine starts knocking right after a oil change, that is what I would suspect first. There is too much coincidence here.
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4439726 - 06/23/17 05:52 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: PimTac]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not a science major but doing 5 minutes of research on the web regarding molecular sounds, I read that you need fine instruments. These are not something the human ear can pick up.

Let's not derail the thread further. The OP has a serious issue and we should concentrate on solving that. I still say swap the filter. Nothing will be wasted as he can save the Ultra since it has less than 100 miles on it. If a engine starts knocking right after a oil change, that is what I would suspect first. There is too much coincidence here.

Again, I'm not talking about molecular sound -- if there is such a thing and, in fact, there isn't. Sound is propagated through a media. The molecules in the media and the structure of these molecules affect how the sound is propagated. It's just like you don't expect wood and steel to propagate the sound in the same manner.

One of the claims of this patent (link) is that the use of a VII in an oil reduces the noise. I'm not saying that this is entirely the reason why a fresh oil sounds differently than a used oil but it could be one of the reasons.

We don't know if the OP has a major issue. He describes it as a "slight bottom-end knock", which could be anything, and it goes away after a while. A quality oil filter like Fram Ultra shouldn't be an issue and there is really nothing in it to be defective to cause engine knocking. It's not an ADBV issue as he said. But then if he's really worried, he can temporarily replace it with a cheap oil filter and see what happens and then put it back.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4439733 - 06/23/17 06:06 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
HoosierJeeper Offline


Registered: 11/23/16
Posts: 1276
Loc: WI
I think I'm going to try swapping back to a Tough Guard or even a Wix.

That new oil thing intrigues me though, I've never noticed that with fresher oil but up until I joined here I can't say I ever would've noticed and maybe I just haven't noticed in years past. Do you guys think there's any harm in letting it ride for a bit and seeing what happens?
_________________________
15 Jeep KL Limited V6: Formula Shell 5W20
07 LR3 SE V8: Maxlife 5W30
05 Jeep KJ Limited: PHM 5W30
96 Jeep XJ Country: STP HM 5W30 (winter)

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#4439738 - 06/23/17 06:21 PM Re: Fram TG vs Ultra: engine noise [Re: HoosierJeeper]
SatinSilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 10128
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
I think I'm going to try swapping back to a Tough Guard or even a Wix.


Good idea and I'd be curious to see if the noise persists after a new filter is put on. Just ST from WM for less than $3. Peace of mind, priceless.

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