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Ethanol Free Gasoline #4435241
06/18/17 03:25 PM
06/18/17 03:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 201
Georgia, USA
HouseTiger Offline OP
HouseTiger  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 201
Georgia, USA
Forgive me if this has already been hashed out before - several of our newest QuikTrip stations in my area are starting to carry ethanol free 87 octane petrol. It's a bit pricey, about $0.50 a gallon higher than standard 87 octane.

Question is without the ethanol, what is added to the fuel to raise/lower the octane to that 87 number? Is there going to be any long term benefit by using it in a car versus the alcoholgas? (the bike loves the stuff)

Some other stations carry an array of ethanol free ranging from 89 to 93 octane, but this QuikTrip is @ 1 mile from me. Thanks.

Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4435246
06/18/17 03:33 PM
06/18/17 03:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,259
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,259
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: HouseTiger

Question is without the ethanol, what is added to the fuel to raise/lower the octane to that 87 number?


Usually Toluene or Xylene.

I think it smells a LOT like 100LL AvGas.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4435296
06/18/17 04:33 PM
06/18/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,410
San Antonio, TX
Nyogtha Offline
Nyogtha  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,410
San Antonio, TX
Real answer depends on refinery configuration. There's no blanket answer.

But in general, the answer would be less lower octane blend stocks like natural gasoline or light straight run naphtha are used in an ethanol free blend than one that will be later blended with ethanol.

Seasonal volatility specs allow more normal butane in pump blends in lower ambient temperature months than higher ambient temperature months, and n-butane has a high octane value. So again everything varies by season as well as refinery configuration, as well as how a refinery operates with a partial shutdown (only some units shut down).

High octane components that a lot of energy has been spent to separate & purify like toluene and xylene are normally sold as petrochemicals - when used in gasoline blends their use tends to be in the higher octane grades like premium, not 87.

100LL typically contains quite a bit of toluene and a special alkylate component, as well as tetraethyl lead. Volatility is a fixed spec, not variable IIRC.


"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4435321
06/18/17 05:14 PM
06/18/17 05:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
utah
dareo Offline
dareo  Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,512
utah
Rumor has it they take 91 or 93 octane and remove the ethanol.


2016 Golf Wagon 5MT, 2014 Accord Sport 6MT, 2016 GMC 1500 SLT 6.2
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: dareo] #4435431
06/18/17 07:23 PM
06/18/17 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,758
Upstate NY
Donald Offline
Donald  Offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,758
Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: dareo
Rumor has it they take 91 or 93 octane and remove the ethanol.


Dumb rumor. Ethanol is the last thing added to gas as the are filling the truck for delivery. It cannot be sent through a pipeline with ethanol.

In NY the stations that sell E0 sell it has premium, 92/93 octane.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4435565
06/18/17 11:03 PM
06/18/17 11:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 968
TX, USA
JMJNet Offline
JMJNet  Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 968
TX, USA
All I know is E0 is good for the car and it is actually have better mpg which means more efficient.

I have not done the calculation for economy on the mpg improvement vs extra price, though.


  • 2017 Toyota Sienna
  • 1995 GMC Suburban 6.5L Turbo Diesel


Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: JMJNet] #4435662
06/19/17 07:18 AM
06/19/17 07:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,109
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,109
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
All I know is E0 is good for the car and it is actually have better mpg which means more efficient.

I have not done the calculation for economy on the mpg improvement vs extra price, though.


Ethanol on a 10% blend means close to 3% loss in MPG.

Trade-off: is the price of the 0% Ethanol gas less than 3% difference vs the 10% gas.


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
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Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4435673
06/19/17 07:38 AM
06/19/17 07:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Olas Offline
Olas  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Ethanol has lower BTUs than petrol so provides less power and mpg per unit consumed.

Ethanol has higher octane than petrol, so if you have high cylinder pressure and appropriate mapping it can provide more power while delivering far lower mpg due to its stoichiometry.

Ethanol can help 'emulsify' water into petrol allowing a tank of 'bad' fuel to run better than if no ethanol were present.

Ethanol has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher latent heat capacity so cools much more than petrol as it 'vaporises' into the airstream.


Cable ties should hold it
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: Danno] #4436011
06/19/17 03:30 PM
06/19/17 03:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 201
Georgia, USA
HouseTiger Offline OP
HouseTiger  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 201
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Danno
Ethanol on a 10% blend means close to 3% loss in MPG.

Trade-off: is the price of the 0% Ethanol gas less than 3% difference vs the 10% gas.



Therein lies the rub. Right now our 87 standard petrol is $2.14 versus $2.64 for the ethanol-free stuff. Difference in MPG over the last two fills is a 2.1 (average) mpg gain, so I'm not sure the financial difference is outweighed by the benefit to the engine. Thanks for the responses.

Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4444572
06/29/17 06:58 AM
06/29/17 06:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,296
Central Iowa
TiredTrucker Offline
TiredTrucker  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,296
Central Iowa
Yeah, i look at the cost per mile of a fuel, not so much just the mpg. While higher mpg feels good, if the fuel to get there is costing more per mile to use, what is the benefit?

Really can't understand why this ethanol thing gets so many in a tizzy. We have had ethanol laced fuels in my area since the 70's. Cars and pickups were not falling apart even back then. My 1974 Pontiac Catalina used E10 almost from the time the fuel was around till the car finally died of body cancer in the 90's. The engine still was running great with over 250,000 miles on it. No other vehicle I have had that used E10 in has ever had any problem. I have rarely seen so many people so paranoid about something.


Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4445407
06/29/17 09:25 PM
06/29/17 09:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,270
Ohio
Tdbo Offline
Tdbo  Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,270
Ohio
For the first time ever in my area, I found some ethanol free gasoline at a Valero about 20 miles from home.
RUG was $2.13.9/gal and the ethanol free 91 was $3.99.9/gal.
Needless to say, I bought the RUG.


2012 Honda Accord LX-P 93K
2008 Ford Mustang Pony Package Convertible 17K
2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L 76K
2003 Ford Ranger 3.0 Supercab 110K
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: Danno] #4445418
06/29/17 09:37 PM
06/29/17 09:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,834
WI.
dblshock Offline
dblshock  Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,834
WI.
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
All I know is E0 is good for the car and it is actually have better mpg which means more efficient.

I have not done the calculation for economy on the mpg improvement vs extra price, though.


Ethanol on a 10% blend means close to 3% loss in MPG.

Trade-off: is the price of the 0% Ethanol gas less than 3% difference vs the 10% gas.



That's the economic equation but the E091 has also a viceral effect on the machine.


16 Civic Coupe Touring 33k
640:1 TCW-3 E091
Edge 0/40 XG7317
Firehawk Indy 500

06 4Runner SR5 141k
640:1 TCW-3
M1 0/40 XG3614
Falken Wildpeak AT3W
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: TiredTrucker] #4445455
06/29/17 10:09 PM
06/29/17 10:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,400
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,400
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yeah, i look at the cost per mile of a fuel, not so much just the mpg. While higher mpg feels good, if the fuel to get there is costing more per mile to use, what is the benefit?

Remember, though, that many jurisdictions simply don't give the option, or give a very skewed option. Here, for instance, the only way to get E0 is to buy premium. Of course, that throws pricing comparisons right out the window. Interestingly, the ethanol enhanced premium (we have only one example) here costs more, since it's regular premium, plus ethanol. The same station, Husky/Mohawk, has an ethanol free premium, and a higher octane ethanol premium.

So, has anyone ever seen an E0 87 side by side, at the same station, with an E10 87, without and octane rating games or subsidies or anything else to cloud the issue?


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: HouseTiger] #4445462
06/29/17 10:13 PM
06/29/17 10:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,834
WI.
dblshock Offline
dblshock  Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,834
WI.
Sure here at 54121 you have Cenex selling 87 89 91 E0 catering to the lake crowd.


16 Civic Coupe Touring 33k
640:1 TCW-3 E091
Edge 0/40 XG7317
Firehawk Indy 500

06 4Runner SR5 141k
640:1 TCW-3
M1 0/40 XG3614
Falken Wildpeak AT3W
Re: Ethanol Free Gasoline [Re: dblshock] #4445510
06/29/17 11:03 PM
06/29/17 11:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,400
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,400
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
That's skewed, too. wink The lake crowd gets ripped off! wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
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