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Engine downsizing comes with downside #4433322
06/16/17 11:50 AM
06/16/17 11:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline OP
supton  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
Ward's

Quote:
Downsized turbocharged engines continue to grow in popularity because they offer impressive fuel efficiency and squeeze out the power. But there’s a downside.

Their high-compression nature in certain circumstances can damage engine parts, sometimes catastrophically, says Joachim Wagenblast, director of R&D-engine systems and components for engine supplier Mahle USA.

He cites broken piston rings, cracked off tops of pistons and bent connecting rods.

The culprit is called low-speed pre-ignition, or LSPI. It is an abnormal combustion phenomenon that occurs before the normal spark-plug ignition and is not widely known.


I've heard of LSPI here but not a lot of it. This article makes it sound like it's more widespread than I thought.

Quote:
Mahle says the need to address the issue is dire, especially because of the increasing popularity of downsized turbocharged engines that can be 30% smaller than their naturally aspirated equivalents.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433336
06/16/17 11:57 AM
06/16/17 11:57 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,011
America
Alfred_B Offline
Alfred_B  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,011
America
Electric cars will fix this issue.

Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433343
06/16/17 12:04 PM
06/16/17 12:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
One way to help avoid LSPI in a DIT engine is to use oil that doesn't promote it.
dexos1 Gen 2 includes an LSPI test in a GM DIT engine and I will sure be looking for that license when it goes live in September. Interestingly enough, it looks like M1 5W30 AP already has a Gen 2 license number.
Here is a good thread that wemay started discussing LSPI and oil, there are more in the "Interesting Articles" forum.

Oronite on LSPI

dexos1 Gen 2 Licenses

BTW, I am interested in LSPI because my car was recalled for it...

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 06/16/17 12:05 PM.

2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433353
06/16/17 12:13 PM
06/16/17 12:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,995
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,995
NY
Toss the problem at the oil companies for a fix. Why not?


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433364
06/16/17 12:23 PM
06/16/17 12:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,408
Balto.
Bamaro Offline
Bamaro  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,408
Balto.
Whats the difference between LSPI and engine knock? shrug


2015 Elantra
2009 Cobalt totaled by inattentive driver
1970 Camaro
2016 Civic
2015 Rogue
2014 Mazda3
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433365
06/16/17 12:24 PM
06/16/17 12:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,700
Southeast
meep Offline
meep  Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,700
Southeast
oil squirters, sodium valves---- get the heat out.... and DI can all help here.

turbocharging is not new--- I wonder what the mfrs are missing.


2018 F150
2015 crv (wifey!)
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433368
06/16/17 12:26 PM
06/16/17 12:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,077
SW Ontario Canada
KGMtech Offline
KGMtech  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,077
SW Ontario Canada
Sounds like a Tier 1 parts supplier is crying over warranty claim issues. No news flash here that turbo charged engines are higher stressed.

That his name is Wagenblast; now that's ironic!

Last edited by KGMtech; 06/16/17 12:27 PM.

2017.5 Nissan Rogue SV FWD
2013 Nissan Maxima SV
2009 Ford Flex SEL FWD
1984 Yamaha XJ750RL
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: meep] #4433369
06/16/17 12:27 PM
06/16/17 12:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,191
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,191
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: meep

turbocharging is not new---


Just think - the 1987 Buick GNX (underrated at 276 hp from 231 cubes) was 30 YEARS ago!!!

Last edited by Linctex; 06/16/17 12:28 PM.

"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: Bamaro] #4433370
06/16/17 12:27 PM
06/16/17 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,740
Rochester, NY
NateDN10 Offline
NateDN10  Offline
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,740
Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Whats the difference between LSPI and engine knock? shrug

I don't remember the details, but LSPI is much more destructive. You can have low-level knocking for a while without completely destroying your engine, but as I understand it, on LSPI event often destroys a piston/ring/rod.


2016 Mazda3 - 20,000 mi.
2011 Toyota Sienna - 100,000 mi.
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: Linctex] #4433373
06/16/17 12:28 PM
06/16/17 12:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,077
SW Ontario Canada
KGMtech Offline
KGMtech  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,077
SW Ontario Canada
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: meep

turbocharging is not new---


Just think - the Buick GN-X was 30 YEARS ago!!!


Chevy Corvair Monza was even older.


2017.5 Nissan Rogue SV FWD
2013 Nissan Maxima SV
2009 Ford Flex SEL FWD
1984 Yamaha XJ750RL
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: KGMtech] #4433376
06/16/17 12:30 PM
06/16/17 12:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,191
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,191
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: KGMtech

Chevy Corvair Monza was even older.


But it was a little too early and under-engineered for the technology.

Modern turbocharged engines really need to have a computer involved in the management of fuel & ignition to make turbo work in everyday passenger cars. (racing is altogether a different scenario)


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: meep] #4433383
06/16/17 12:36 PM
06/16/17 12:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,633
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,633
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: meep
turbocharging is not new--- I wonder what the mfrs are missing.

Turbocharging is not new, but turbocharging with DI is relatively new, and that's where LSPI occurs...

https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433391
06/16/17 12:46 PM
06/16/17 12:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,829
.
Danh Offline
Danh  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,829
.
It's not like LSPI is news to engine makers. After a few, early missteps (e.g. Subaru), they seem to have the issue under control. Now the methods they've used to mitigate LSPI may have other consequences like fuel dilution and slightly decreased fuel economy, but we don't hear many horror stories about TGDI engine failures these days. For example, has anyone here heard of a serious mechanical problem with a Ford EcoBoost?

Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: supton] #4433404
06/16/17 01:06 PM
06/16/17 01:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
I think the 2.0L in the Cadillac ATS was prone to this, as it seemed to break pistons kind of irregularly, not related to how hard it was driven.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 218km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 15km 0W20
Re: Engine downsizing comes with downside [Re: Danh] #4433417
06/16/17 01:18 PM
06/16/17 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,439
New England
Originally Posted By: Danh
It's not like LSPI is news to engine makers. After a few, early missteps (e.g. Subaru), they seem to have the issue under control. Now the methods they've used to mitigate LSPI may have other consequences like fuel dilution and slightly decreased fuel economy, but we don't hear many horror stories about TGDI engine failures these days. For example, has anyone here heard of a serious mechanical problem with a Ford EcoBoost?


The Ecoboosts seem to have done quite well, but GM had a recall fairly recently for 1.5l DITs in Malibus. Note the very specific oil recommendations...

Malibu SPI Recall


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
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