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Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) #4432777
06/15/17 09:17 PM
06/15/17 09:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
I've got 11,000 on some Warren 5W-30 Semi-Syn, and it still "looks" good... (I change a lot of oil in "abused" vehicles - this stuff 'looks like new' compared to some stuff I drain!)

With Texas heat getting hotter and me doing more and more trailer towing, I'm thinking it's time to change the oil.

I have read some of DNewton3's posts, and he backs his words up with science. For example:

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Additionally, Ford/Conoco proved this as well. Wear rates DROP as the OCI lengthens.
Check out SAE 2007-01-4133; buy it and read it! Ford tested wear at 0 miles, 3k miles, 5k miles, 7.5k miles, 10k miles and even 15k miles; the wear rates were highest upon the OCI and least after 15k miles!

Generally, there is a parabolic curve that is associated with wear rates. The are slightly higher initially, drop down to nearly nothing, and then escalate again after the oil is compromised past its point to deal with contamination.

The "uptick" in wear is due to the tribochemical barrier being removed by the "fresh" detergent package upon installation. Yes - believe it or not, too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Now, DO NOT read too much into this; I'm not saying it will kill any engine. But what I am explaining, and what is abundantly clear in UOA data as well as supported directly with the SAE article, is that the wear is HIGHER upon the initial OCI, because the cleaning additives actually remove the boundary layer that protects the metal parts. Don't believe me? Read the whole article. And review my "normalcy" article as well; there is CLEAR data that shows the wear rates drop the further out you get from an OCI event.

I stand by what I state; it's true despite what rhetoric may contradict it.

Please provide a link to your referenced article; I'd like to read it.

For reference of my claims:
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
and my article:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/


So, I'm thinking of changing the oil to reduce varnish and possible deposit buildup in the engine (not worried about wear too much at all)

My Question:
Should I leave a little used oil in?
1 quart?
2 quarts? (sump & filter holds 6)

It would add "new add pack stuff",
and some new detergents, etc. ...

...but would leaving a little "old" oil help with the "tribochemical barrier" not getting removed?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432794
06/15/17 09:34 PM
06/15/17 09:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,807
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,807
Taiwan
This is probably another job for Universal Answer B Man (Nobody Knows) but I'd guess not.

I THINK the used oil (from your refs, and from what I vaguely remember reading) isn't the main thing here, its the established tribofilm. Used oil is mostly relevant because of what isn't in it, and it'll be swamped by the new stuff.

If you're concerned about varnish formation then the only practical way to avoid that is to get most of the oxidised oil out of there.

Or I'm wrong. Could easily be.

Last edited by Ducked; 06/15/17 09:35 PM.
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432798
06/15/17 09:39 PM
06/15/17 09:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,903
MTL, CANADA
Rolla07 Offline
Rolla07  Offline
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,903
MTL, CANADA
Id do a UOA on the oil but change it out. Get TAN and TBN readings. I dont think leaving old oil helps reduce varnish and deposit buildup.


2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
PP 0w20 & ST 4967

Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432809
06/15/17 10:00 PM
06/15/17 10:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
I'm sure I'm "over thinking" this - I should just change the darnn oil already! grin grin grin


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432824
06/15/17 10:26 PM
06/15/17 10:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,231
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,231
'Stralia
That paper keeps getting trotted out as proof of something that the paper never tested nor demonstrated.

They took a bunch of used oils, some of which were utterly shagged, had thickened excessivly and had poor TBN.

Then they use a contacting surface tribometer and measured the establishment of the tribofilms with new and progressively used oil. The used oil formed tribofilms on fresh metal surfaces quicker than fresh.

This is entirely to be expected, as the first part of the laying down of tribofilms involves partial destruction of the ZDDP/Mo into more reactive species...some additive companies put a lot of different elemental "variaties" in so that there are different points of activation.

So the oil with the most already partially reacted species in it produced the best tribofilms the earliest...exactly as expected.

The Used oil, excessively thick, wiht no TBN to speak of was not necessarily the best oil to have in the engine. Extrapolating the limits (surface tribometer) of this study INTO that realm is really stretching the bow a bit (well a lot).

And at OCI, the quote that you have provided assumes that ALL of the tribofilm is removed to fresh metal (not true, never seen anything on that).

As to the thought process...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4060600/1

Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432870
06/15/17 11:16 PM
06/15/17 11:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
Leave the filter for a week or two after changing the oil. Then change the filter and top up. Any partially activated films will be deposited by then and the "new" oil will be starting to activate smile


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432901
06/16/17 12:29 AM
06/16/17 12:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,140
US-WA
Dyusik Offline
Dyusik  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,140
US-WA
Or depending on the filter just leave it alone and change it next time...


95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30, XG8
07 IS250 100K Napa 10w30, FULL
04 YZF-R1 19K DELO 15w40, XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 20K VR1 20w50, NG1515
14 RX450h 33k PP MIX, NG7047
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432945
06/16/17 03:40 AM
06/16/17 03:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,746
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,746
Orlando, FL
Leave oil filer on and just do a drain/refill.

Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432946
06/16/17 03:45 AM
06/16/17 03:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,231
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,231
'Stralia
Broc, Dyusik, and Mr Nice...that is where I am at (can't with the Colorado, it's dealer service under warranty)...change oil on partially blinded filter, so any bottle contaminants are picked up...change filter mid OCI.

Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432949
06/16/17 04:14 AM
06/16/17 04:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,632
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,632
Down Under
I'm staggering my oil and filter change. 50% Off-Set.

Just say I decide on a 6 month OCI. I do the oil now (0 M), filter in 3 months (3 M), oil again in another 3 months (6 M), filter again in another 3 months (9 M), etc.

Which reminds me, it's time to swap my filter soon, it's done about 11,500 KM (7,100 miles). The SynPower oil has done about 7,500 KM (4,600 miles) and is still looking very good. OK, so it's not exactly 50% off-set, but you get the idea.

I always top off with the same oil that is already in the sump, when I do a filter change. As my car takes 4.5L, but I buy 5 L containers. It doesn't consume a noticeable amount, so it's nice to give it a dose of the fresh stuff half way through.


Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432953
06/16/17 04:43 AM
06/16/17 04:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,727
BC, Canada
userfriendly Offline
userfriendly  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,727
BC, Canada
My 6.6 Duramax will take 12 liters of oil if I let it drip the last drop, facing up hill overnight. In goes the new oil and after 15 minutes of running it will drain out almost as black as the old oil. This tells me that there is a lot of residual oil in the engine despite my best efforts to drain it all out.
Gasoline doesn't blacken the oil like Diesel, so you can perform this experiment with oil drained from a gasoline engine.

Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4432972
06/16/17 05:37 AM
06/16/17 05:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,760
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,760
Crawfordville FL
Originally Posted By: Linctex
I've got 11,000 on some Warren 5W-30 Semi-Syn, and it still "looks" good... (I change a lot of oil in "abused" vehicles - this stuff 'looks like new' compared to some stuff I drain!)

With Texas heat getting hotter and me doing more and more trailer towing, I'm thinking it's time to change the oil.

I have read some of DNewton3's posts, and he backs his words up with science. For example:

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Additionally, Ford/Conoco proved this as well. Wear rates DROP as the OCI lengthens.
Check out SAE 2007-01-4133; buy it and read it! Ford tested wear at 0 miles, 3k miles, 5k miles, 7.5k miles, 10k miles and even 15k miles; the wear rates were highest upon the OCI and least after 15k miles!

Generally, there is a parabolic curve that is associated with wear rates. The are slightly higher initially, drop down to nearly nothing, and then escalate again after the oil is compromised past its point to deal with contamination.

The "uptick" in wear is due to the tribochemical barrier being removed by the "fresh" detergent package upon installation. Yes - believe it or not, too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Now, DO NOT read too much into this; I'm not saying it will kill any engine. But what I am explaining, and what is abundantly clear in UOA data as well as supported directly with the SAE article, is that the wear is HIGHER upon the initial OCI, because the cleaning additives actually remove the boundary layer that protects the metal parts. Don't believe me? Read the whole article. And review my "normalcy" article as well; there is CLEAR data that shows the wear rates drop the further out you get from an OCI event.

I stand by what I state; it's true despite what rhetoric may contradict it.

Please provide a link to your referenced article; I'd like to read it.

For reference of my claims:
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
and my article:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/


So, I'm thinking of changing the oil to reduce varnish and possible deposit buildup in the engine (not worried about wear too much at all)

My Question:
Should I leave a little used oil in?
1 quart?
2 quarts? (sump & filter holds 6)

It would add "new add pack stuff",
and some new detergents, etc. ...

...but would leaving a little "old" oil help with the "tribochemical barrier" not getting removed?


No. Leaving dirty oil in will just contaminate the new stuff. Extend your oci instead


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: SilverFusion2010] #4432990
06/16/17 06:16 AM
06/16/17 06:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,734
Texas
Dallas69 Offline
Dallas69  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,734
Texas
Just change the oil and filter man.
You already put 11000 on it and that filter is shot unless its an Ultra.
You worry too much.


2009 Galant-ultra oil and filter
1987 Ford F-150 302
Smittys 5-30
Motorcraft filter
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Dallas69] #4433160
06/16/17 09:47 AM
06/16/17 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline OP
Linctex  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,484
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
Or depending on the filter just leave it alone and change it next time...


I already run oils filters 2x OCI's... I have picks on here of a Fram Tough Guard that just did 15,000

Originally Posted By: Dallas69

You already put 11000 on it and that filter is shot unless its an Ultra.


I haven't had any oil filter failures in many years. It's a Wix (Affinia) and I seriously doubt it's "shot".


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Should I leave a little used oil in? ( DNewton3 ) [Re: Linctex] #4433205
06/16/17 10:35 AM
06/16/17 10:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,750
Rijeka, EU
No. In fact PSA (that would be Peugeot/Citroen) even published bulletin on how accurately change oil on 1.6 16v HDI (modern common rail diesel).
In short, if procedure is not followed to the letter, on OC some oil would remain in engine resulting in accelerated (new) oil thickening and engine (turbo actually) damage.

Eventually oil would be too compromised to take the longer Euro OCI and turbo oil feed pipe would get clogged. This would happen over just several consecutive OCI if not performed as noted.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
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