Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
I posted nothing untrue, and the article is referenced:
References:
Leonard Bensch, Pall Corporation ‘How the new ISO particle count standard will affect you.’
Paul W Michael, Benz Oil, Tom S Wanke, Fluid Power Institute, ‘Surgically clean hydraulic oil – a case study.’
International Standard ISO 4406-1999, Hydraulic fluid power – Fluids – Method of coding the level of
contamination by solid particles.
James C. Fitch, Handbook of case studies on contamination control. (1991)
I will take the word of Mr. Jim Fitch over the word of anyone on this forum. Sorry I do not share your blind obeisance to Mr. Newton. Neither do I accept YOUR "opinion." You may now have the thread, attack away, I'm done responding.
I apologize that I don't share your point of view
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Let's look at the first link ihatetochangeoil posted, and take a quote right from the text ....
Clean, dry oil can extend equipment life ...
Go back and read what I stated, and then read that whole linked text. NOWHERE does it say that a filter makes an engine last longer. What it states is that (I'm paraphrasing here) tighter filtration makes a lube cleaner, and that cleaner lube will last longer in service. I am being VERY specific here. Filters do not make a piece of equipment last longer. What makes equipment last longer is a good clean fluid. But a clean fluid is NOT exclusive to filtration. Dumping and filling the sump can also make for a low contamination level.
There are two fundamental questions to ask:
1) how "clean" does a lube have to be to give a long lifespan?
2) how does one achieve that level of cleanliness?
Generally, an engine (tranny, diff, gearbox, whatever) does not need a hyper-clinically-clean environment to survive. Each piece of equipment will have some nuances that it prefers, but generally engines can survive just fine with "normal" levels of "clean". It is not, by any notion, necessary to remove every sub-micronic particle from the sump to have the motor last a long time. I cannot assure you what level of "clean" is right for each engine; that would be data that I don't have. But I CAN state with impunity that most engines survive just fine with "normal" filtration.
Ask yourself this, considering two extreme conditions:
a) if you put on the "best" FF filter, and then added the "best" BP filter element, but had no oil whatsoever in your engine, how long do you think it would last running at 1500 rpm? Probably about 20 minutes or less.
b) if you put in premium syn lube, but had no filter whatsoever, how long would it last? While it may not last forever, it sure as heck will last a LOT longer than option "a".
So in condition "a", just how well did that filter protect the engine directly? The answer is zero; it did nothing to make the engine last longer. But in condition "b", the oil was able to prolong the life of the engine. You see, filters to NOT make equipment last longer. Filters clean fluids. It is that clean fluid (sustained to some reasonable level) that makes a piece of equipment last a long time. Filters prolong the lifespan of a lube, not an engine.
Here's some real world examples:
https://www.knfilters.com/video/MillionMile.htm
1 million miles on one air filter, but had 400 oil changes (average OCI = 2500 miles). Now, while it is possible that the engine might have been in "better" shape if premium oil filter would have been used, it's clear that just normal oil changes made this unit last a LONG TIME, well past what "normal" folks would have ever done with it. Ironically, he could have probably run 5k or 10k miles, still had low wear, and saved money. But the point is that frequent O/FCIs made this last a long time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjRgiAOHm-E
This guy put over a million miles on his SuperDuty truck. In fact, I was so curious about this truck that I actually called that service center (easy to do nowadays with the inter-webbie searches). I spoke directly with the service manager that oversaw this vehicle maintenance plan. Actually, this truck is now dead; it was totaled in a wreck. But it actually had FOUR engines in over 3 million miles! You did not read that incorrectly! Here's how it played out ...
engine 1; died in a little over 100k miles. They didn't have time to deal with a rebuild, so they sourced an engine out of parts yard and got the truck back on the road
engine 2; went over a million miles. This second engine is the feature engine in this video. It went over 1 million miles, and then died. They sourced another parts-yard 5.4L for a swap.
engine 3; went close a million miles. The news story of this truck stopped, but the miles kept piling up. Engine 3 died just shy of a million miles as I recall. Yanked it out and put in #4 from yet another donor truck.
engine 4; was closing in on another million miles, and the vehicle was totaled in a wreck.
When I spoke with the service manager, he told me that the only lube/filter these engines got was Havoline 10w-40 conventional lube and a MC or other normal filter. Not one drop of synthetics; not one super-premium filter. Just "normal" routine O/FCIs at around 7-8k miles.
My point is that "normal" products (decent oil/filters, but nothing expensive or extraordinary) made these units go WAY longer than most people will ever use them. Both these guys might have been better off monetarily if they had used syn fluids and bypass, not to make the engines last longer, but to stretch out the fiscal opportunities. Syns and bypass filtration could have really paid off in savings. But it's clear that these two trucks didn't need super filters just to last a long time. IOW - the routine oil and filter changes were obviously keeping the sumps "clean enough" to sustain a LONG lifespan. So hyper cleaning the fluid would not likely have made the engines last longer. And, it's not like these two trucks are isolated; there are actually LOTS of vehicles with very high miles. Some use super-premium products like syns and BP filters, whereas others use "normal" products changed more often. Which emphasizes the point here .... Equipment longevity is NOT mutually exclusive to one form of maintenance committment. There is more than one way to make your equipment last a long time.
Guys - don't think of this in terms of indirect relationships. Think of DIRECT interactions. (recall your old childhood and the song about the leg bone connected to the knee bone; the knee bone connected to the thigh bone ....) The filter media never touches an engine anywhere. What the filter touches is the lube, and the lube touches the engine part surfaces.
Filters do NOTHING to extend the life of an engine. What they do is extend the usable lifespan of a lube by keeping the lube "clean enough" to sustain the equipment lifespan. As long as that lube is "clean enough" to sustain a viable level of engine survive-ability, then all will be fine. Filters don't clean an engine; filters clean the oil.
I would agree that super-fine filtration will make for super-clean oil. And that super-clean oil may (not will, but might) make a piece of equipment last some fractional portion longer. But to what end? What expense do you have to endure to get that level? I cannot tell you. But what I can state with complete certainty is that "normal" levels of clean (provided by decent O/FCIs) will make equipment last a lot longer than most folks will ever use a piece of equipment.
I stand by what I said previously, and challenge any of you to directly controvert it with logic and evidence:
Quote:
Filters don't make equipment last longer. They make lubes last longer in service.
What makes a piece of equipment last a long time is a good commitment to a proper maintenance program.
CLEAN OIL, managed to a reasonably sustainable level, is what makes equipment last a long time. There are two ways you can achieve that level of "clean":
- flush contamination out
- filter contamination out
Two roads to the same destination.
What is critical to equipment longevity is knowing and understanding the type program you're going to commit to, and then managing that program to a level that sustains the lifespan you desire out of the equipment.
DNewton: thank you for the actual informative posts as well
