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Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm #4426440
06/08/17 11:07 PM
06/08/17 11:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
Here's an interesting thesis that explores several systems of oil life monitoring and then proposes and simulates a more complex oil life algorithm:

https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/392


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4426447
06/08/17 11:32 PM
06/08/17 11:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,044
Utah
CKN Offline
CKN  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,044
Utah
When I can't sleep this will be prefect reading...............

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CKN] #4426457
06/09/17 01:31 AM
06/09/17 01:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: CKN
When I can't sleep this will be prefect reading...............


Know what you mean, but think of the saving.

If its any good it replaces approximately 100,000 bitog posts over the life of your engine.

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4426545
06/09/17 06:25 AM
06/09/17 06:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
I've seen that paper cited a number of times on this forum.
Its informative, as there is a summary of Ford's, Chrysler, and GM algorithms, a lot of engineering knowledge on the subject of how to do this right.

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4426597
06/09/17 07:31 AM
06/09/17 07:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 476
MN
WillsYoda Offline
WillsYoda  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 476
MN
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: oil_film_movies] #4426628
06/09/17 08:06 AM
06/09/17 08:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I've seen that paper cited a number of times on this forum.
Its informative, as there is a summary of Ford's, Chrysler, and GM algorithms, a lot of engineering knowledge on the subject of how to do this right.


Agree its of interest, but the English is a bit broken in various places, which makes it a bit long-winded, and can affect the meaning. For example:

"3. It is not clear how the sensor differentiates between the changes in viscosity caused by
temperature change, oxidation, fuel dilution, and mechanical wear, all of which may lead
to oil deterioration but may not be detected by change in viscosity. "


seems to be a circular self-contradiction.

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: WillsYoda] #4426663
06/09/17 08:58 AM
06/09/17 08:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline
supton  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
Great. I don't come into this sub-forum often, but I clicked anyhow.

Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Dumb question: is there a difference between synthetic and conventional when it comes to holding water? IIRC "polar" molecules are better solvents... maybe synthetic's supposed cleaning ability means it's more polar? thus better able to hold water? Guess I'm not sure why one would expect synthetic to be different when it comes to water build up in winter.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: WillsYoda] #4426890
06/09/17 01:27 PM
06/09/17 01:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,255
CA
Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Also that an ambient temperature of 25c is enough for there NOT to be water contamination after short trips.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: supton] #4427060
06/09/17 05:21 PM
06/09/17 05:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: supton
Great. I don't come into this sub-forum often, but I clicked anyhow.

Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Dumb question: is there a difference between synthetic and conventional when it comes to holding water? IIRC "polar" molecules are better solvents... maybe synthetic's supposed cleaning ability means it's more polar? thus better able to hold water? Guess I'm not sure why one would expect synthetic to be different when it comes to water build up in winter.


Don't think you necessarily would. Don't forget this is a Masters Dissertation.

There's no guarantee that any of the editorial comment is any more soundly based than, say, a bitog post. It'll have been written in a hurry, evidently by a non-native (though high level) speaker of English, under deadline pressure, and it'll have been reviewed on the same basis.

Last edited by Ducked; 06/09/17 05:25 PM.
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4427683
06/10/17 10:22 AM
06/10/17 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
Keep in mind any algorithms shown are high level descriptions and do not show any subroutines that may be calculating intermediate values.


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4449821
07/04/17 07:15 PM
07/04/17 07:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 371
Washington, USA
Onug Offline
Onug  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 371
Washington, USA
That's a pretty interesting read...I saved that file for future reference


2016 F-150 3.5L Ecoboost
Current Oil: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 and Fram Ultra filter
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4451916
07/06/17 10:53 PM
07/06/17 10:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Now, how to retrofit Delphi's system to an older engine ...

And then there is this: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4445186/Amsoil_SS_5w-20,_62,000_miles,#Post4445186

62,000 miles on AmsOil SS with by-pass filtration. TBN of 3.8'ish, but with no TAN to compare ... Brave soul to run that far. I prolly would not run past 18~20K even with his filtration.


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4475134
07/30/17 10:39 PM
07/30/17 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 187
Venezuela, South America
Emanuel Offline
Emanuel  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 187
Venezuela, South America
I read the entire thesis, it was awesome. It made me learn a lot of things that I will consider to reduce the wear of the oil in my car

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer] #4475179
07/31/17 02:32 AM
07/31/17 02:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,489
Seattle-ish, WA
Oro_O Offline
Oro_O  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,489
Seattle-ish, WA

From the dissertation, and among many good things:

Quote:
 Due to EGR and engine design changes, no unusual engine wear was exhibited. Only
International 6.0L engine exhibited relatively high iron accumulation rates, which may be
explained in part by the engine having much smaller oil sump when compared to other
engines.


Which was something I've contemplated a long time. I don't like smaller sumps and see a trend in vehicles I own. I don't understand why particular engine thermal and particulate characteristics and sump size are not factored into oil life and we stick with a "one size fits all" change interval recommendation. From a really thoughtful analysis, it makes no sense to make general guidelines. An OLM tailored to a particular vehicle makes sense. A "use this oil 5,00 miles in (whatever car you have, however you use it)" endorsement just looks like utter nonsense and a conscious lie by the auto maker or oil refiner.

Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: Oro_O] #4475190
07/31/17 03:00 AM
07/31/17 03:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Oro_O
A "use this oil 5,00 miles in (whatever car you have, however you use it)" endorsement just looks like utter nonsense and a conscious lie by the auto maker or oil refiner.


At the risk of not being cynical enough, "conscious lie" is a bit strong. Its an approximation, which is all you can reasonably expect of a general recommendation, especially in this context, where huge differences in OCI are required to make any consistent difference.

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