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#4426440 - 06/09/17 12:07 AM Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm
CharlieBauer Offline


Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 1177
Loc: CA
Here's an interesting thesis that explores several systems of oil life monitoring and then proposes and simulates a more complex oil life algorithm:

https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/392
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#4426447 - 06/09/17 12:32 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
CKN Online   content


Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 3699
Loc: Utah
When I can't sleep this will be prefect reading...............

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#4426457 - 06/09/17 02:31 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CKN]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4360
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: CKN
When I can't sleep this will be prefect reading...............


Know what you mean, but think of the saving.

If its any good it replaces approximately 100,000 bitog posts over the life of your engine.

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#4426545 - 06/09/17 07:25 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
oil_film_movies Online   content


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2564
Loc: MN
I've seen that paper cited a number of times on this forum.
Its informative, as there is a summary of Ford's, Chrysler, and GM algorithms, a lot of engineering knowledge on the subject of how to do this right.

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#4426597 - 06/09/17 08:31 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
WillsYoda Offline


Registered: 10/17/15
Posts: 471
Loc: MN
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).

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#4426628 - 06/09/17 09:06 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: oil_film_movies]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4360
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I've seen that paper cited a number of times on this forum.
Its informative, as there is a summary of Ford's, Chrysler, and GM algorithms, a lot of engineering knowledge on the subject of how to do this right.


Agree its of interest, but the English is a bit broken in various places, which makes it a bit long-winded, and can affect the meaning. For example:

"3. It is not clear how the sensor differentiates between the changes in viscosity caused by
temperature change, oxidation, fuel dilution, and mechanical wear, all of which may lead
to oil deterioration but may not be detected by change in viscosity. "


seems to be a circular self-contradiction.

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#4426663 - 06/09/17 09:58 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: WillsYoda]
supton Online   content


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 11959
Loc: NH
Great. I don't come into this sub-forum often, but I clicked anyhow.

Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Dumb question: is there a difference between synthetic and conventional when it comes to holding water? IIRC "polar" molecules are better solvents... maybe synthetic's supposed cleaning ability means it's more polar? thus better able to hold water? Guess I'm not sure why one would expect synthetic to be different when it comes to water build up in winter.
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2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 162k, hers
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#4426890 - 06/09/17 02:27 PM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: WillsYoda]
CharlieBauer Offline


Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 1177
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Also that an ambient temperature of 25c is enough for there NOT to be water contamination after short trips.
_________________________
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain

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#4427060 - 06/09/17 06:21 PM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: supton]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4360
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: supton
Great. I don't come into this sub-forum often, but I clicked anyhow.

Originally Posted By: WillsYoda
What I find most telling in this thesis is quote: "The results also indicate that 500 miles of short-trip service cause as much
reduction in TBN as 8000 miles of long-trip service" (page 9).

Also the discussion about how harsh short tripping in winter is on oil was fascinating: "No water was found in the engine oil during the first 10,000-mile long-trip service. During the short-trip service in winter, water contamination levels were high even in case of synthetic oil and there was no water contamination during the short trip service in summer" and "[i]n the short-trip winter testing during second oil-change interval, the oil lost oxidative stability rapidly." (page 8).


Dumb question: is there a difference between synthetic and conventional when it comes to holding water? IIRC "polar" molecules are better solvents... maybe synthetic's supposed cleaning ability means it's more polar? thus better able to hold water? Guess I'm not sure why one would expect synthetic to be different when it comes to water build up in winter.


Don't think you necessarily would. Don't forget this is a Masters Dissertation.

There's no guarantee that any of the editorial comment is any more soundly based than, say, a bitog post. It'll have been written in a hurry, evidently by a non-native (though high level) speaker of English, under deadline pressure, and it'll have been reviewed on the same basis.


Edited by Ducked (06/09/17 06:25 PM)

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#4427683 - 06/10/17 11:22 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Keep in mind any algorithms shown are high level descriptions and do not show any subroutines that may be calculating intermediate values.

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#4449821 - 07/04/17 08:15 PM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
Onug Offline


Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 344
Loc: Washington, USA
That's a pretty interesting read...I saved that file for future reference
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Current Oil: Mobil 1 5W-30 and Fram Ultra filter

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#4451916 - 07/06/17 11:53 PM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5518
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Now, how to retrofit Delphi's system to an older engine ...

And then there is this: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4445186/Amsoil_SS_5w-20,_62,000_miles,#Post4445186

62,000 miles on AmsOil SS with by-pass filtration. TBN of 3.8'ish, but with no TAN to compare ... Brave soul to run that far. I prolly would not run past 18~20K even with his filtration.
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Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4475134 - 07/30/17 11:39 PM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
Emanuel Offline


Registered: 07/01/17
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela, South America
I read the entire thesis, it was awesome. It made me learn a lot of things that I will consider to reduce the wear of the oil in my car

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#4475179 - 07/31/17 03:32 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: CharlieBauer]
Oro_O Offline


Registered: 09/20/14
Posts: 1351
Loc: Seattle-ish, WA

From the dissertation, and among many good things:

Quote:
 Due to EGR and engine design changes, no unusual engine wear was exhibited. Only
International 6.0L engine exhibited relatively high iron accumulation rates, which may be
explained in part by the engine having much smaller oil sump when compared to other
engines.


Which was something I've contemplated a long time. I don't like smaller sumps and see a trend in vehicles I own. I don't understand why particular engine thermal and particulate characteristics and sump size are not factored into oil life and we stick with a "one size fits all" change interval recommendation. From a really thoughtful analysis, it makes no sense to make general guidelines. An OLM tailored to a particular vehicle makes sense. A "use this oil 5,00 miles in (whatever car you have, however you use it)" endorsement just looks like utter nonsense and a conscious lie by the auto maker or oil refiner.

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#4475190 - 07/31/17 04:00 AM Re: Interesting Thesis on Oil Life Algorithm [Re: Oro_O]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4360
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Oro_O
A "use this oil 5,00 miles in (whatever car you have, however you use it)" endorsement just looks like utter nonsense and a conscious lie by the auto maker or oil refiner.


At the risk of not being cynical enough, "conscious lie" is a bit strong. Its an approximation, which is all you can reasonably expect of a general recommendation, especially in this context, where huge differences in OCI are required to make any consistent difference.

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