Motul 300V and Safety Data Sheet

[alex_at]

Hi,

I'm an avid user of Motul 300V Factory Line motorcycle oils. From what I've been reading they are really a fully synthetic ester base stock oil.

While they do perform great I ran across an interesting section in the safety data sheet which says the following: (Thats for the 300V Factory Line 10W40, from 15-01-2013):

Index 649-483-00-5
CAS 72623-87-1
EC 276-738-4

LUBRICATING OILS (PETROLEUM), C20 50, HYDROTREATED NEUTRAL OIL BASED %: 50
-> Now what's this? GRP III Hydrockracked oil somwhere inbetween 50-100%? , GTL?

I wouldn't have expected such an ingredient in an 100% fully synthetic oil?


Now it get's interesting: Motul 5100 part synthetic with ester, 10W40:
Same ingredient in the safety data sheet, but the range is: 10 <= x% < 25

 

[SZR48207]

Interesting! The stuff costs around $60/gallon here so if it is indeed based on dino, then oh boy..

I don't suppose it is legal for companies to lie on their MSDS? (then again, why would Motul lie if their selling point has been esters this whole time?)

 

[DeepFriar]

Another disillutioned BITOGer.... Others here who know far more about oil than I do will give you the particulars but suffice for the moment to say that all oils are a blend of ingredients. Second, there is no general agreement amongst companys' marketing departments about the definition of synthetic. Motul has built their reputation on their majority ester products like 300V but due to the requirements in operation of finished products oil requires a combination of ingredients to do its job. So, third, an MSDS is never going to be a formula. The truth is we don't know from one day to the next the makeup of any given oil. Disappointing ain't it?

 

[BrocLuno]

Ester oils don't accept or hold additives well. They need some dino oil to get the additives into the blend. Many high end oils have GRP III as the carrier. It's a superior carrier to old GRP II basic dino used in the past. Because it is a good lubricant in its own right, they have mostly upped the amount of GRP III blended with the ester base. 300V is still an excellent oil

 

[alex_at]

Thanks for the replies. I do have learned here on bitog that the end product is that product that counts.
But still I was disappointed to see the holy grail of Motul oils the 300V to be not completely fully synthetic.

How does the Motul 5100 fit in there then? I can buy a 4L can for around half the price of 300V. 5100 is part synthetic and ester based. So where's the advantage of 300V part from that it possibly has more esters ?

I mean, for the half price of 300V I can get Motul 5100, She'll Advance Ultra (supposed to be GtL now), Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w50 ( Pao based according to msds ) and so on ....


I ride a Boulevard C50, a bike with more than a few known rod bearing damages when ridden hard. So I thought I'll give her the best oil available to prevent such damage on mine. So far I've used zero oil even when driven on the highway. I thought the ester gives the oil the extra strength needed when this bike is ridden hard....

Maybe I'll give Maxima Extra4 a try next oil change

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
Thanks for the replies. I do have learned here on bitog that the end product is that product that counts.
But still I was disappointed to see the holy grail of Motul oils the 300V to be not completely fully synthetic.

How does the Motul 5100 fit in there then? I can buy a 4L can for around half the price of 300V. 5100 is part synthetic and ester based. So where's the advantage of 300V part from that it possibly has more esters ?

I mean, for the half price of 300V I can get Motul 5100, She'll Advance Ultra (supposed to be GtL now), Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w50 ( Pao based according to msds ) and so on ....


I ride a Boulevard C50, a bike with more than a few known rod bearing damages when ridden hard. So I thought I'll give her the best oil available to prevent such damage on mine. So far I've used zero oil even when driven on the highway. I thought the ester gives the oil the extra strength needed when this bike is ridden hard....

Maybe I'll give Maxima Extra4 a try next oil change


Is the C50 air cooled? Why not run a good 20W50 V-Twin oil like from Mobil1 MC or Valvoline MC oil?

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ester oils don't accept or hold additives well. They need some dino oil to get the additives into the blend. Many high end oils have GRP III as the carrier. It's a superior carrier to old GRP II basic dino used in the past. Because it is a good lubricant in its own right, they have mostly upped the amount of GRP III blended with the ester base. 300V is still an excellent oil

What I thought ester had good additive solubility and it was PAO that needed a dino or group five to serve as the additive carrier?

 

[alex_at]

@Reddy45: No, it's watercooled.
@LoneRanger: I remember reading something similar on here before, GRP IV PAO has limited additive solubility, GRP V Esters are better in that respect - but I can't find that post now...

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ester oils don't accept or hold additives well. They need some dino oil to get the additives into the blend. Many high end oils have GRP III as the carrier. It's a superior carrier to old GRP II basic dino used in the past. Because it is a good lubricant in its own right, they have mostly upped the amount of GRP III blended with the ester base. 300V is still an excellent oil

What I thought ester had good additive solubility and it was PAO that needed a dino or group five to serve as the additive carrier?

Certain esters are good with additives and others may need a boost.

Esters in general are better than PAO though for additive solubility.

Just about all additives are great in groups I and II, most are also good in group III.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
Thanks for the replies. I do have learned here on bitog that the end product is that product that counts.
But still I was disappointed to see the holy grail of Motul oils the 300V to be not completely fully synthetic.

How does the Motul 5100 fit in there then? I can buy a 4L can for around half the price of 300V. 5100 is part synthetic and ester based. So where's the advantage of 300V part from that it possibly has more esters ?

I mean, for the half price of 300V I can get Motul 5100, She'll Advance Ultra (supposed to be GtL now), Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w50



The 5100 is a good contrast to 300V In that Motul explicitly says it is "technosynthese" which, in their parlance, means it is a conventional and synthetic blend "with ester". So it would seem that 5100 may be Group II/Group III "conventional" heavy. Note that there are "some" Group III's that are synthetic and some that are not. So, speculation on my part is that it is entirely possible, indeed likely given their claims, that 300V is 100% synthetic. There's no question it is an excellent oil. But 5100, if it meets the certification requirements for your bike, is just as useable unless absolute mechanical brutality is your normal operating mode. I doubt that is the case.

 

[02SE]

I've tried lots of different oils over the years in a succession of mostly high performance, shared sump, I-4 Sportbikes. My current favorite is Motul 300V 4T, simply for how the bikes perform with that oil. My second choice (only if a couldn't get the Motul) would be Redline's M/C oil.

 

[alex_at]

@DeepFriar: Motul 5100: I agree with that, possibly that passus that shows up in the MSDS represents GRP III oil and that's why it's lower in the 5100 than in the 300V. But why isn't there a GRP II content listed in the 5100 msds? If GRP III is considered hazardous, then GRP II should be too.

@O2SE: The UOA of 300V that I've seen have been top notch. I also like the performance, the shift quality is really amazing given the low cST at 100°C. But for the price I didn't expect Mineral content.

In regards to RedLine: On paper they have excellent oil, unfortunately beeing in Europe the price for Redline (and Amsoil too) is very high. For 4 litres of Motul 300V 10W40 i pay around 55 Euros, 4 quarts of Redline (slightly under 4 litres) I would pay 100 Euros.

Maybe I'll give Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4 Plus a try next oil change, according to their MSDS it's completly synthetic. (Unfortunaetly their MSDS gives only very limited information, and Fuchs themself didn't tell me wether it's GRP IV/V oil.)


But other than the MSDS which shows mineral oil content, I really like Motul 300V, the shift quality is one of the best I ever encountered. There was an Amsoil paper on 10W40 oils a few years back - and according to this paper Motul 300V sheared only by a very small amount - so possibly it's not really relevant wether it's a mix of Group III,IV and V or GRP IV/V only....


edit:
I used to use Motul 300V in the last 2 years in my 125cc Piaggio scooter. Beeing a single cylinder I could feel the difference in vibration with various oils. Motul 300V produced the smoothest engine operation of all oils I've tried in that engine, it seemed to start easieer and rev much easier too.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
@DeepFriar: Motul 5100: I agree with that, possibly that passus that shows up in the MSDS represents GRP III oil and that's why it's lower in the 5100 than in the 300V. But why isn't there a GRP II content listed in the 5100 msds? If GRP III is considered hazardous, then GRP II should be too.


My post may have given the impression that I thought both II &III are present in 5100. Not so. There need not be any II at all in 5100 if a "conventional" III is the mineral oil mentioned in the MSDS.

Again, always remember that the MSDS is only an indicator at best. Not enough information to draw real conclusions from and certainly not enough to recommend one oil over another IMHO.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: alex_at


@O2SE: The UOA of 300V that I've seen have been top notch. I also like the performance, the shift quality is really amazing given the low cST at 100°C. But for the price I didn't expect Mineral content.

In regards to RedLine: On paper they have excellent oil, unfortunately beeing in Europe the price for Redline (and Amsoil too) is very high. For 4 litres of Motul 300V 10W40 i pay around 55 Euros, 4 quarts of Redline (slightly under 4 litres) I would pay 100 Euros.

Maybe I'll give Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4 Plus a try next oil change, according to their MSDS it's completly synthetic. (Unfortunaetly their MSDS gives only very limited information, and Fuchs themself didn't tell me wether it's GRP IV/V oil.)


But other than the MSDS which shows mineral oil content, I really like Motul 300V, the shift quality is one of the best I ever encountered. There was an Amsoil paper on 10W40 oils a few years back - and according to this paper Motul 300V sheared only by a very small amount - so possibly it's not really relevant wether it's a mix of Group III,IV and V or GRP IV/V only....


edit:
I used to use Motul 300V in the last 2 years in my 125cc Piaggio scooter. Beeing a single cylinder I could feel the difference in vibration with various oils. Motul 300V produced the smoothest engine operation of all oils I've tried in that engine, it seemed to start easieer and rev much easier too.


FWIW, I've tried the Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4, Maxima double ester, Repsol, Motorex, etc, etc. pretty much every oil I could find. None of them compare to the Motul 300V 4T in my experience.

I'm jealous of the roads you have where you live. I've ridden in your area of Europe, and could be happy riding those alpine passes throughout the Alps for the rest of my life.

 

[alex_at]

now it gets interesting:

What are your experiences with the 300V in regards with all the other oils?

From that list I've only tried 300V so far and it makes the engine superbly smooth and has a great shift quality.

Have you done any UOA's to compare these oils?

How did you like the Fuchs and especially the Maxima compared to 300V? Some say the Maxima is the best oil available.

You mentioned RedLine as your second choice, so your list would be 1.) Motul 300V, 2.) Redline 3.) The rest of the above?



don't get me wrong, I'm a Motul 300V fan and really like it, the only reason I started this thread was simply the fact that I was convinced that it's purely a Ester and PAO GRP V and IV mix, maybe a little mineral for additive solubility, I never expected what I saw in the MSDS.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
now it gets interesting:

What are your experiences with the 300V in regards with all the other oils?

From that list I've only tried 300V so far and it makes the engine superbly smooth and has a great shift quality.

Have you done any UOA's to compare these oils?

How did you like the Fuchs and especially the Maxima compared to 300V? Some say the Maxima is the best oil available.

You mentioned RedLine as your second choice, so your list would be 1.) Motul 300V, 2.) Redline 3.) The rest of the above?



don't get me wrong, I'm a Motul 300V fan and really like it, the only reason I started this thread was simply the fact that I was convinced that it's purely a Ester and PAO GRP V and IV mix, maybe a little mineral for additive solubility, I never expected what I saw in the MSDS.


For me, the difference between oils was simply how the bike ran and shifted, and for how long. Most of the oils I've tried in the last 10 years or so, (I've been riding on the roads since the early 80's) have been in the same bike. A heavily modified all-motor Hayabusa that is built to rail through the twisties, or around a Roadrace track. It's much lighter than stock, with over 100 rwhp more than stock. The suspension has been thoroughly massaged to provide a smooth but controlled ride. The brakes have been upgraded. The trans is a Fast by Gast undercut transmission. It produces enough power and heat to tax any oil. The Motul 300V 4T just simply holds up the best, IME.

I also like how my other Sportbike (lightly modded '15 S1000RR) runs on it. Although it is not as hard on oil. It more like a touring bike with it's heated grips and cruise control.

As for the other oils, none of them held up as well as the Motul. The engine didn't run quite as smooth, and the shifting would eventually become less slick, despite the undercut transmission.



I'm beginning to sound like a Motul advertisement, which is not my intention. I just use what I found works best in my bikes.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
@DeepFriar: Motul 5100: I agree with that, possibly that passus that shows up in the MSDS represents GRP III oil and that's why it's lower in the 5100 than in the 300V. But why isn't there a GRP II content listed in the 5100 msds? If GRP III is considered hazardous, then GRP II should be too.

Depending on the Group II and group III used they may not be distinguished from one another on an MSDS. They could both be classified in various petroleum distillate categories so they could easily be grouped together into a single percentage where possible.

 

[alex_at]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: alex_at
@DeepFriar: Motul 5100: I agree with that, possibly that passus that shows up in the MSDS represents GRP III oil and that's why it's lower in the 5100 than in the 300V. But why isn't there a GRP II content listed in the 5100 msds? If GRP III is considered hazardous, then GRP II should be too.

Depending on the Group II and group III used they may not be distinguished from one another on an MSDS. They could both be classified in various petroleum distillate categories so they could easily be grouped together into a single percentage where possible.


Thanks for your answer MotoTribologist, that could indeed be the right answer. But - and I do know that the MSDS is by no means a reciepe, but the 5100, Motuls part synthetic oil has a significantly lower mineral content than the 300V, at least in the MSDS.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: alex_at
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: alex_at
@DeepFriar: Motul 5100: I agree with that, possibly that passus that shows up in the MSDS represents GRP III oil and that's why it's lower in the 5100 than in the 300V. But why isn't there a GRP II content listed in the 5100 msds? If GRP III is considered hazardous, then GRP II should be too.

Depending on the Group II and group III used they may not be distinguished from one another on an MSDS. They could both be classified in various petroleum distillate categories so they could easily be grouped together into a single percentage where possible.


Thanks for your answer MotoTribologist, that could indeed be the right answer. But - and I do know that the MSDS is by no means a reciepe, but the 5100, Motuls part synthetic oil has a significantly lower mineral content than the 300V, at least in the MSDS.

Yeah it appears a lot of "marketing" is going on with the products in question and the full truth may be a little different than what the label says.