Low SAPS oil question

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On my 08 MB ML 320cdi, I've been running the Mobil 1 5-40esp since I've had it. My last batch is in it currently. This is the last year before "Blue" was introduced. MB wants everybody to go to a xx-30esp. After reading the attached article, I'm thinking of going to a 15-40 CK oil. The Mobil ESP oils run about .6 ash content. The 15-40 diesel oils seem to run about 1 ash content and are stated to protect emissions systems. So my question is, does the difference between .6 and 1 ash content really matter in my engine. It has 92k on it and I want it to last a long time. Stickers on top of the engine say to use 229.31 or 228.51 oils. I've always used the 229.51. My indy mechanic told me they put wrong stickers on some of them but I'm thinking this car was built just before 229.51 oils came out. What say you Bitoger's?
http://www.stephensservice.com/bluetec-diesel-issuesproblems/
 
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

I've never seen a 20-60 oil but use 20-50 in my Harley. He does suggest 15-40 with a 5k oci. I agree with you about oci's. I ran 9k on the Mobil 1 5-40 once and the iron was high so I do about 5k now.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

We are talking about diesel fuel here specifically. As far as I recall, we've had ULSD here for quite some time now, so rapid TBN depletion should not be an issue. Gasoline would be another story.
 
All that low or mid saps buzz is about protecting dpf from oil leaking into exhaust
If your engine eats hardly the oil or dpf is absent, use full saps with no worries
MB calls for mid saps 0.8% so 1.0% is almost perfect
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

We are talking about diesel fuel here specifically. As far as I recall, we've had ULSD here for quite some time now, so rapid TBN depletion should not be an issue. Gasoline would be another story.


Sorry, thought we were still "dirtier" than Europe on diesel but am basically ignorant on that topic...
 
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?
 
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
From the linked article...
"Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than a 20W/60 oil. "

I'm sure 20W-60 oil has the potential for a low NOACK, but low SAPS (0.6%) M1 5W30 ESP has about 6% NOACK loss. It also has a really low starting TBN, so be super careful about long OCIs on US fuel.

That is not an issue when it comes to U.S. diesel.
 
Originally Posted By: loneryder
So my question is, does the difference between .6 and 1 ash content really matter in my engine. It has 92k on it and I want it to last a long time. Stickers on top of the engine say to use 229.31 or 228.51 oils.

Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 CJ-4/SN E6, E7, E9 is 228.51.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner
wink.gif
)

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner
wink.gif
)

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
I'm assuming that my DPF will have more regens with a higher ash content but how much more really? If I have less oil fumes in the crankcase, won't there be less going thru the intake and exhaust?

It will, and longevity will decrease. Regeneration does not get rid of ash completely. DPF has life expectancy, and highr ash content (among other things) will shorten it.
I would tick to MB 229.51 strictly. I make sure when I buy oils that besides BMW LL-04, oil has MB 299.51 due to MB's deposit and NOACK requirements.


Regen does not get rid of ash at all. The regen process overheats the DPF and burns away the soot, which is particulate matter created by the incomplete burning of the fuel (the smoke that diesels make) - this soot is largely carbon and will therefore burn. The ash from burning the engine oil is mostly metal oxides (from elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc and any other metals in the additives) - these will not burn away in the regen - they are staying there. Over time they accumulate and will eventually block the DPF permanently. This is why lower ash oils are specified, to reduce the ash build-up in the DPF, ideally to a level that means the DPF life will outlive the car (or, at least, outlive the first owner
wink.gif
)

Of course the amount of ash depends also on how much oil the engine burns, as well as what elements are in it. However, given the same oil consumption rate and process, a lower ash oil will always put less ash in the DPF than a full-ash one. If the DPF gets more ash-loaded then it will regen more often, trying (and failing) to clear it out - the regen process puts more fuel through the engine, potentially leading to higher fuel consumption, higher fuel dilution, bore washing and so on.

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.

What you guys are talking about is protecting the DPF. I want to protect my engine like the article says. My engine doesn't use any oil on a 5k oic. When I went 9k, it used about a third of a qt. When I drive it, I go usually over 50 miles mostly hwy driving. Doesn't a 15-40 oil have a lower NOACK than these 5-30's? Wouldn't there be less oil fumes to blow thru the turbo and burn downstream?
 
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me
 
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me

How will that help?
 
Quote:
What you guys are talking about is protecting the DPF. I want to protect my engine like the article says. My engine doesn't use any oil on a 5k oic. When I went 9k, it used about a third of a qt. When I drive it, I go usually over 50 miles mostly hwy driving. Doesn't a 15-40 oil have a lower NOACK than these 5-30's? Wouldn't there be less oil fumes to blow thru the turbo and burn downstream?

I saw in Europe MB engines like yours with 500-700k in taxis running on ACEA C3. Not sure why you think C3 oil will provide less protection.
That is most ridiculous thing that is running on this forum, and many people are repeating it. It is thing unique to the U.S.
No, 15W40 will not have as low NOACK as M1 5W30 ESP.
You can run whatever in your MB, I know I do not have a problem running M1 5W30 ESP and Valvoline 5W40 MST in my BMW that is much more potent engine then MB one.
 
Eddyvw, I'm going by what the experienced MB guy said in his article. I'm not claiming to know anything. That's why I posed the question. Sometimes it seems that everyone just wants to argue on here. I have followed your posts for some time and always enjoy them.
Those Mobil 1 esp oils don't give any info on what classifications they meet, just that it meets MB specs which I have never seen.
 
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