When is a HDEO not better?

[Bailes1992]

In terms of engine cleanliness, wear and protection when is a HDEO not better than a good PCMO?

I'm looking at HDEOs for my own diesel Ford Focus and seen a few 10w30 syntethic oils which would go nicely in my car, my partners VW Polo and my Mothers Suzuki Jimny. I could probably throw it in my Fathers Defender 300tdi and BMW F30 320d too, although the Defender usually calls for something thicker.

And... it got me thinking.
If you took emissions and fuel economy out of the equation and you were looking specifically for engine longevity, would you consider anything other than a HDEO? Is there anything a HDEO isn't good at?

 

[Ducked]

I've seen it said..er...somewhere.. that the AW agents aren't optimal for petrol engines because (IIRC) they have a higher temperature of activation (reflecting higher diesel engine operating temperatures).

I've also read somewhere that the higher detergent/dispersant loading (necessary to deal with diesel soot)can compete for surfaces and inhibit the development of a tribofilm.

Seems alright in my wee sub litre 3-cyl petrol engine though.

 

[Jetronic]

The specs HDEO (ACEA Ex) have to meet are equal or lower compared to what PCMO have to meet (ACEA A3/B4 or C3/C4).

So for longevity, I wouldn't consider HDEO. I'd consider it for it's cheaper price though.

 

[Noey]

So, why are HDEO's like Delo and Delavac recommended for classic cars?

 

[Garak]

Noey, remember where the posters are from. They have a lot better selection of "economy" A3/B3 A3/B4 type lubricants, if you can call oils across the pond ever an "economy" oil. There are lots of 15w-40 A3/B3 A3/B4 type options in other parts of the world. In North America, try to find one. Every $10 to $15 a gallon (or much more in Canada

)15w-40 we get is an HDEO.

All our A3/B4 lubricants are premium synthetics, demanding the appropriate price, not the lower price per quart you get with a 5 gallon pail of Delvac Super.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted By: Noey
So, why are HDEO's like Delo and Delavac recommended for classic cars?


High ZDDP for flat tappet type engines.

 

[dparm]

When a PCMO is cheaper?

 

[Jetronic]

Not in Europe.

HDEO is cheaper, but you need to buy 5 gallon pails, or more...

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I've seen it said..er...somewhere.. that the AW agents aren't optimal for petrol engines because (IIRC) they have a higher temperature of activation (reflecting higher diesel engine operating temperatures).

I've also read somewhere that the higher detergent/dispersant loading (necessary to deal with diesel soot)can compete for surfaces and inhibit the development of a tribofilm.

Seems alright in my wee sub litre 3-cyl petrol engine though.


Diesels run colder than gas engines.. unless you mean heat from the turbo(s).

I personally don't buy any of this. If it's got the gas approval, it's good. I'd venture to say something old enough wouldn't even need to have a duel rated diesel oil to see good results.

 

[bullwinkle]

Diesels do (generally) have greater compression, especially the IDI ones-the two engines in my sig are in the range of 22-1, leading to higher shock loads (and resulting higher bearing temperatures) than the average 9-1 gas engine.

 

[Noey]

Ok, so what about a classic without flat tappets, why does everyone universally rec HDEO?

 

[Garak]

Same reason. Anything else with higher phosphorus involves a boutique or an A3/B4, which costs a little more, too. And, some don't want a synthetic in an older engine, either.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Diesels do (generally) have greater compression, especially the IDI ones-the two engines in my sig are in the range of 22-1, leading to higher shock loads (and resulting higher bearing temperatures) than the average 9-1 gas engine.


Yes, but this is accounted for in the HTHS which is 3.5 cP minimum. Nowadays there are some diesels that can tolerate 2.9 cP, but they are the diesel equivalent of the japanese gas engines seeking extremely low HTHS.

 

[Bailes1992]

My Focus is supposedly able to run on an A5/B5 oil which means a HTHS of as low as 2.9cP. Citreon and Peugeot both say to use a C2 oil. I know of many run into 200k with no issues on the manafacturer specified oil.

However I'm not comfortable with a tiny 1500cc diesel engine running 120bhp and 270nm of torque on a fuel economy oil. When I start tuning (hoping for 150bhp+ with around 400nm) I really won't be happy on an A5/B5 oil.

 

[chrisri]

I use C3 5w40 in my 1.6, 8v HDI ( originally specified oil is C2). IME zero measurable Fe loss, engine rev as happily as before, less clutter by the end of 20K km OCI. I'm satisfied.

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
I use C3 5w40 in my 1.6, 8v HDI ( originally specified oil is C2). IME zero measurable Fe loss, engine rev as happily as before, less clutter by the end of 20K km OCI. I'm satisfied.


20K km? Really? You know they have a tiny little 3.8litre sump? Right?

My UOA showed the oil (Castrol Edge 0w30 A5/B5) was unfortunately watered down by diesel to a 20 weight after just 5,200miles. I'm running a slightly thicker 30 weight now in the form of Total Quartz 9000 0w30 which hopefully will hold up to the fuel dilution a little better.

From now on I'll only be running an A3/B4 with SAPS 1% or less or a C3 oil.

 

[Jetronic]

What's your experience with the Total oil so far? My engine really seems to like it: quiet quickly after start-up, oil levels stay where they are, no increase in DPF regens and I'm currently getting the best fuel economy I ever managed.

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
What's your experience with the Total oil so far? My engine really seems to like it: quiet quickly after start-up, oil levels stay where they are, no increase in DPF regens and I'm currently getting the best fuel economy I ever managed.


If I'm honest it goes the same, sounds the same and feels the same. I'm just happy knowing it offers much better protection than what I had been using previously. I will say my fuel economy is better than ever which I'm finding very odd being that it's got a HTHS of 3.6 compared to 2.9 of the stuff I was using before.

 

[Jetronic]

Then why look any further? The Total isn't expensive enough to risk losing economy or poorer driving characteristics.

HDEO has a 3.5 cP minimum, but most will be significantly higher. Even the total can swallow 20% fuel and still maintain 2.9 cP HTHS. And at that dilution, the SAPS % will be well below 0.8 and calcium/zinc/phosphor concentrations will be on par with other C3/C2 oils.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
Originally Posted By: chrisri
I use C3 5w40 in my 1.6, 8v HDI ( originally specified oil is C2). IME zero measurable Fe loss, engine rev as happily as before, less clutter by the end of 20K km OCI. I'm satisfied.


20K km? Really? You know they have a tiny little 3.8litre sump? Right?

My UOA showed the oil (Castrol Edge 0w30 A5/B5) was unfortunately watered down by diesel to a 20 weight after just 5,200miles. I'm running a slightly thicker 30 weight now in the form of Total Quartz 9000 0w30 which hopefully will hold up to the fuel dilution a little better.

From now on I'll only be running an A3/B4 with SAPS 1% or less or a C3 oil.


Yes, 20K km. I find that conservative since OEM recommendation is 25k. We had the same practice with our old (08) Renault and still going at 460K.

A bit of background: this is commercial van used for work, it does approximately 8-9K per month, mostly on motorway or open roads. Little city duty.

The concern about fuel dilutions led me to switch to C3 oils- Valvoline Synpower 5w40 to be specific.

Be careful with using full SAPS. I had to wash the DPF after two OCI with E6 oil. It may be coincidence since car did hit 150K mark, but I'm done experimenting.